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[Alug]Alug computers
by Colin Hards 12 Jul '03

12 Jul '03

Keith, >We have some old monitors here a work >I think I can get one or two of if >they'd be of use. If this idea goes ahead then some monitors would be handy. My obsolete loft computer is without a monitor as this item is my working spare - but it's going dark, so not good for long periods. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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[Alug]Ah well, it's happened at last!!
by Keith Watson 12 Jul '03

12 Jul '03

Don't say that Mr. Gates doesn't know a good thing when he sees it! <http://www.mslinux.org/> Regards, Keith ____________ CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary

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[Alug]Alug computers
by Colin Hards 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

Many thanks to those who've emailed me privately to express broad agreement to the ideas I've raised. Ill get around to replying to list comments when I get a chance. I'd like to make a further suggestion. One reason speakers may be less willing to step forward to talk at group meetings is the difficulty of providing computers for use in their demonstrations. Perhaps ALUG should provide them? If we provide speakers with one or two computers a few weeks before the meeting, then they can load them with their OS and relevant software for their discussion or demo well in advance. The advantage of this is that their own equipment does not need to be disassembled and transported, and at the meetings group members can experiment with the computers and test software after the talk, without fear of compromising private files or important work. Therefore the speakers equipment will not be risked. The best solution would be for the next speaker to collect the machines after an earlier group meeting, but if this is not possible then I'd be happy to deliver them (let's say Norfolk) at a convenient time to the home of speaker. I could also store a few machines in between whiles if this was necessary. I have one old machine in my loft and will be retiring another in a month or two, and would be happy to donate them. Perhaps over time group members upgrading could donate their old systems to the group rather than bin them, and this way the group can gradually update the stock. Maybe some businesses could also be persuaded help with old gear. Even if a meeting had no speaker a number of group machine could be set up so we can all try out different software. Taking the idea further still, once a reasonable number of computers were obtained by the group then demonstrations or open days become possible - even to schools! Colin _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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[Alug]Late reminder - Norwich meeting tonight
by Syd Hancock 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

For anyone just in from work and who has missed the earlier announcements - Norwich social meet this evening, thursday 10th July, 8pm in the coffee bar of the Forum (big new place by the market) Syd

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[Alug]Distro Survey
by Keith Watson 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

Just out of curiosity I'd like to know what distro's the list members use and the numbers of each. If you have no objections can you email me at <mailto:kpwatson@ukfsn.org> telling me; 1) how many distros you have installed and bootable 2) across how many machines 3) what one is your favourite 4) what one do you tend to use most regularly 5) do you have a Linux only setup or do you have a flavour of Windows installed also. I'll collate the numbers and feed it back to the list as an anonymous set of statistics (or damm lies if you prefer :o) ). Regards, Keith ____________ CONSULT, v.i. To seek another's disapproval of a course already decided on. Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary

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[Alug]Linux friendly printers
by jamie.french＠talk21.com 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

Hi Guys, Can anyone recommend a Linux friendly cheap colour inkjet printer? It also key to work with Windows. Take Care, Jamie Best Regards, Jamie French -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com

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[Alug]Linux & education
by Colin Hards 11 Jul '03

11 Jul '03

Dan >While I sympathize with the replies of other group >members to the effect that we're a Linux users' >group, not a Linux trainers' group or a Linux >evangelists' group, and that Colin's post doesn't >give enough detail for us to help much, these >statistics scare me. Something's wrong here. Not necessarily. If the group reading this is satisfied with the direction ALUG is going in then I'm 'odd out' and will have to seek other solutions. The group may consist largely of trained computer professionals for whom this idea is irrelevant, and other users may be happy to potter along in their own time. I could be the only one using this list who wants this. There are other solutions - some costing, some long distance (for me). I'm merely asking if the local one is a possibility. But there's no suggestion of the group having to change if it doesn't want to. >Colin, perhaps you could tell us what your job is, >and maybe give us some examples of tasks you've >been unable to transfer to Linux, or have been >able to transfer, but only at low productivity. I >think it probable that we'll be able to come up >with some tips to change this. My job is not really relevant to this, but anyway I'm a video editor in broadcast television - working freelance mostly at Anglia TV, (and I'm doing a late shift on Thursday to midnight). Prior to that I was a cameraman. Anyone viewing broadcast television over the last 20 years will know of the consistent decline of the medium, and sadly I can see no end to this in ITV. Budgets are shrinking and so will quality, but the story is repeated in many other industries. We're also told we may have to work into our 70's if our pensions are to be worth anything. So tentatively I'm keeping an open mind for other avenues to move into if the work I do declines even further. As to specifics, MJR was good enough to sort out my computer at a ALUG meeting where apparently Apache was loaded (with the O/S) but wasn't functioning. To be useful to me I'd like to load PHP as well, but reading about this (from "PHP & MySQL web development" book) seems to indicate two types of integration, and anyway when I tried it following notes in there it didn't work. Under Windows loading a program is pretty much cut and dried. All have installers, and basically get on with it. I'm pretty sure that my failure here is almost certainly down to my lack of knowledge about the basics of what I'm doing. Putting this problem on the list would be difficult as (now) I can't remember exactly what I did or at what point the load failed. Perhaps I'll have another stab at it this wekend. But I doubt the group would want me to thrash around with this sort of problem on the list? What happens when the next piece of software I try out, also doesn't install / run? Wouldn't it be far better for all concerned if I could acquire the basics of what's going on, rather than trying to post possibly stupid beginner problems on the list? As to low productivity, this may be psychological as much as real. I get the impression that everything happens faster on my Win2000 system (Athlon 1.2GH, 392MB) box than the Xandros (Athlon 2.1GHz, 256MB) box - Win2000 loads in 70% of the time of Xandros despite the slower older system. Even the Win2000 control via a LAN of Xandros windows is better than the KDE control. But the real issue is that when any problem occurs on the Linux system, work stops as solutions are difficult to find. Some of the help files which I have accessed are pretty poor. This is I'm sure just a matter of acclimatisation, and it would be helpful to speed this up. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

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Re: [Alug]Linux & education
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

MJRay wrote >.......the IRC channel (irc.alug.org.uk #alug) seems to have >people in it most of the time now, although sometimes not very talkative. You may find you have to first silence the more loquacious members who like to go on at length about their motorbikes and hens. Jen (Bored waiting for a 1.2gig file to unzip and untar itself)

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[Alug]Awareness
by Keith Watson 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

Like MJR, inspired by Colin's post, I have been thinking (not a pretty sight). One of the main issues with OSS is the general lack of awareness about it. To most people Windows is so ubiquitous that it is synonymous with the idea of a PC. So the question is how can we raise awareness of OSS software? Whatever it is has to be low cost (i.e. free or nearly free) but has to reach a fairly wide audience. I though the installfests a good idea in principal but I could never see how they could be implemented in a effective way. However 2 things have worked their way into my consciousness recently that may offer a solution. Knoppix and The Forum. I think Knoppix is a great way of showing non-technically minded people that a) there is another life after MS and b) that you don't have to know f*** all about operating systems to run GNU/Linux (in fact you don't even have to know that its called that!). I now always carry a Knoppix CD around with me and whenever someone asks me about this Linux thing I'm talking about I just find the nearest available PC (i.e. the owner doesn't mind my booting a CD off it) and run it up. Usually the response I get is initially "Is that it? So how is it deferent from the PC I normally use?" and then most people quite happily play around with the word-processor, spreadsheet, etc. with no problems (the next question is always "so where's the games?") Then after a while they ask "How much is this?" and that give me the chance to do the whole OSS spiel. Great thing about Knoppix is that 99 times in 100 it just boots and runs. No hardware issues or technical install problems. It just works. Just behind the coffee shop area in the Forum there is a small exhibition area. Several times now I've noticed local specialist groups using it. I occurs to me that it would be great if we could set up some Knoppix demos here. Perhaps over a weekend. I might be a good way to reach a more general public. There's all sorts of ideas floating (just mistyped that as fouling, Freudian slip?) round my head, so I'll stop there. I'll do some research and see if there's any way to get access to that area (costs, eligibility, etc.). Feedback please. Keith

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[Alug]Linux & education
by Colin Hards 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

Thanks to everyone who replied. >hangon, if you think Alug should be doing >this and doing that why are you >moaning about it and not doing anything? I can't do anything as I see myself as the pupil here. Do you mean I should be organising a venue? Alug seem to have this reasonable sorted, at least I've been to Syleham, Elmswell, King's Lynn, Norwich. Do you mean I should be badgering members to act as lecturers? I don't think I'm able to. I would hope that this request would encourage knowledgeable members (only you know if you have the knowledge and skills to do this) to come forward and perhaps volunteer to help train some beginners. >Their are many people here who are willing to to give talks etc. Great. If this is so please get together with one or other of the main Alug organisers to see if a program of instruction or lectures could be arranged. >but until someone asks for them they are not likely to do them That's what I'm doing - asking for them. I also saw some suggestions before Christmas on this mail list of the possibility of lecture or talks being started early this year. So I've waited to see if any of these came about. You're now debating if you can 'educate' students / school teachers? I'm asking on behalf of home users. >because of a lack of a perceived need and because they are >busy working on other things. Lack of perceived need? If no one else on this list supports me then you may be right. But that conclusion won't get Linux thriving in East Anglia will it? Members here have talked about crusading on behalf of Linux. I'm suggesting one possible avenue to further that. Busy working. Yes, we all are. Of course I'm not demanding anyone gets involved here who hasn't the time and expertise, and the willingness to pass on their knowledge. >The meetings are not really "disorganised" either, they are a >bunch of geeks/hackers/linux users/friends who like to meet up >every couple of months to talk about computers and other crap, in some ways >they are deliberatly disorganised as even >without a formal agenda we always end up locked out of the >venue standing around talking in the cold because we run out of time. Hey, I've got no problem with this. You've every right to do precisely what you want at these meetings. If as a group you outwardly appear too professional, then perhaps you frighten away many possibly interested members of the public. This may deter beginners, not encourage them. >If anyone comes to us with a specific need or >topic they need a talk on then we will try and >arrange something. I could quote you quite a few. But I'd rather ALUG set up a series of tutorials - maybe an hour at the beginning of a meeting - dedicated to a topic to help beginners. Or perhaps at another time if you want to keep the proceeding separate. Or would ten of the knowledgeable users give up a Saturday morning, or a couple of hours one evening, to get a series of lectures going? If you need subject suggestions, I'm happy to list a few. >If you find the meetings a waste of time why do >you come to them? It's fair to give everything a chance, and I have over more than six months. If I hadn't bothered to travel to any, you'd rightly criticise that. I'm merely saying that there seems little reason for me to attend any more of these gatherings unless I have a better idea in advance what can be got out of it. >Many of us also work directly with spreading the >word and the software, indeed all my previous jobs >have seen me spreading Linux and free software where >possible within companies and organisations. It seems to me that getting a Linux box, and a Linux OS with it or loaded onto it is the least of the problems. What is needed is help thereafter, using it to it's full potential. I'll leave the last few sections, as that probably won't help, but thanks Adam for your comments. ~~~~~~~~~ >Well, what can you do to help fix it? It sounds as though you have some >clear ideas about what you'd like to see happen at a meeting, . . . but >maybe it needs more planned activities and more >circulation. How to organise that? Well, perhaps the Alug web site would help here. If the user group organised a series of lectures, then it should be publicised as widely as possible. On the web site. A5 leaflets in computer stores if they're agreeable, leaflets to schools / colleges. Give us a file to download from the web site, we each print out 100 or so at home. Leave some with local computer businesses. We all live near to some of these. I'll walk about and deliver some in Dereham if ALUG has a firm plan and publishes it a few weeks / months in advance. If no one registers to book a place at these lectures, well cancel the whole idea and there's only a little wasted effort or expense, but probably on the plus side the benefit of getting some exercise. But you need a thought out viable program up front to start with. >All of this would welcome help, I think. Fair enough. You say you are fairly well organised administratively, and as I have little Linux experience or group knowledge it's difficult to see where I can help. But I appreciate that if I'm to benefit from your knowledge, then I must contribute. I'm happy to. I'm on the committee of two other 'pastime' societies, so feel I am repaying them for previous and current support. If I can help Alug I'm willing to give it a shot. ~~~~~~~~~~ >My point is that you get away with not learning >about a windows PC not because it works without >having to do so but that you can't anyway mostly. I'd quite happy to find fault with Windows and agree it's infuriating at times. Hence my toe in the water of Linux. I also agree that because we've grown up with Windows, knowledge about using the system has been acquired gradually over the years, just sufficient to do what we want. But a change over to Linux is not the same as an getting the next newer version of Windows. There's a lot of differences, and some training would get the show on the road much much quicker. The availability of this type of support would encourage a lot to think about Linux more seriously. >In further addition to this, if people do want specific >Linux training then there are people around on this >list who will do it for you, of course it will not be free, >and it will probably not be cheap. You're correct that there are quite a few expensive courses out there - I've seen £1675 for a 5 day Linux course. But I don't want to be a system administrator. I want to use a home computer. Companies who offer these courses know the individual isn't paying, his employer is, hence the price. There are also some quite modest ones - one I saw was in the order of £80 for a day's 'introduction to Linux' at Bromley college, and if my request peters out here then I'll probably think about that one. If anyone knows of courses closer to East Anglia not targeting system admins or costing many hundreds per day, then I'd be grateful if you can point me at them. I did a 6 month long one day a week course at Norwich City College a year ago. If they offered the same for Linux, I'd sign up. The course had about 20 others on it, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that a Linux and related subjects course might interest quite a few as well. But what's so terrible about paying for a course? I don't expect something for nothing. If you managed to get 10 beginners together for a day and each contributed a small fee, then you'd have quite a useful recompense even allowing for provision of computers and some travel expenses - or scale this for an evening etc. >It would be quite acceptable for someone to post >on the list and offer to pay or ask for a complete training course. This sounds like a 'one to one', and of course that would be expensive. So would a 'complete' course, and that implies decent training manuals and course notes, and would be time consuming for the trainer to set up and run. I'm thinking about a group, gathered around a computer or three, seeing a demo, taking notes themselves if they want to, maybe between 5 and 15 at a time? ~~~~~~~~~~ >In the past, I remember informal demos being some of >the most useful bits, but they're haphazard and unstructured. >I'm not suggesting anything really demanding, but a bit of >background material put up and some advance warning about >what will be there. Yes, great. I'd go for that as well. Choose a piece of software, and give half an hour about the basics, then take a Q&A on it, or allow a bit of hands on. Sounds good. Again, I'm happy to suggest a few for the list. ~~~~~~~~~ >The best way to get more out of the meetings is to >get involved, post to the List or Wiki with >topics/talks/requests you would like to see at a >meeting and see if there are any members who are >willing to assist. I'll wait for further reaction to this reply first, but if a list of subjects is needed I'll post one. Most of this will be pretty obvious, but I hope I'm past the point where it bothers me too much to admit my ignorance. I hope others in a similar position or sharing this view will also post to this list. If they don't, then I will have to conclude what I'm after really isn't required - as has been suggested. My reason for raising this subject was the huge number of messages on this list about Microsoft overcharging for software. This topic then drifted onto how to educate / get schools into the Linux camp. I'm jumping onto this bandwagon to champion a similar approach for the public. If this is not your remit then I'll say no more. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

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