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Weekly IRC meeting reminder
by Adam Bower 18 Jun '01

18 Jun '01

This is the automated ALUG irc meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an irc meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.openprojects.net in the #alug channel, you can take a look at www.openprojects.net to get more info on the openprojects network. Popular irc clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and ircII on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.bitchx.com http://www.xchat.org http://freshmeat.net http://www.epicsol.org/ (for Brett!) Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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BBC web browser
by Mills 17 Jun '01

17 Jun '01

Steve Fosdick wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 12:51:58PM -0400, Ashley T . Howes wrote: > > > I just looked at these. In June 2001 3.3% of visitors were using a > > BBC Micro > > That is interesting. I wonder what kind of web browser you could > write to run in a machine with 32K RAM. Of course, if you made the Later BBCs had more RAM. > browser a "language ROM" you get an additional 16K for your code, and > can use the RAM that frees up for data. > > So, does anyone know of a web browser for the BBC Micro? I am writing a web browser for the QL in SuperBasic (and now in C, using curses). However the project started out on an Acorn RiscPC in BBC Basic, this should work on a BBC given some alteration. A TCP/IP stack (and code to work with it) would be needed and I know of several 8 bit computers with them, so it could be done. Yours Tarquin Mills

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Re: [Alug] Usage Stats for anglian.lug.org.uk
by MJ Ray 16 Jun '01

16 Jun '01

Steve Fosdick <fozzy(a)pelvoux.demon.co.uk> writes: > The other possibility, of course, is that someone has a browser that > lets the user configure the agent header (doesn't opera let you do > that?), or a proxy server that can be made to falsify it. It's wwwoffle falsifying the user-agent to flag up sites which are trying to check the user-agent header and return different versions of a site to me. They almost all look at "BBC Micro" and go "MUH?". It's the same reason my default browser background is lime green: to spot bad web site coding. > The other interesting thing is that this is a Linux related web site > and most of the browsers appear to be MS IE on Windows! Yes, I noticed that. I guess we need more content which is aimed at a) illustrating the benefits of Linux for people running buggy non-free systems; and b) getting Linux ppp working easily. Any volunteers? Articles should first be emailed to alug-announce at stu.uea.ac.uk to test them out and get the rough edges knocked off. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 15 Jun '01

15 Jun '01

>Nor was I, it has taken many years to build up the little knowledge >that I have. I my self have asked lots of stupid questions and also >admitted to being wrong (publically on list). I have been where you sit >now but with people just saying RTFM, and as such have sat and read >"Computer Networks" and also "TCP/IP Network Admin", I was about to >make a comment about this book then realised that I have your copy on >my desk at home. Just a quick further on one this as I'm sure the list are rolling their eyes - sorry, got home last night and thought what a pillock i must have sounded spouting all that out. Glad you took it in the slightly humorous vein it was intended in, David. I hope it didn't sound as though i take it for granted i have some kind of right to your knowledge - I am actually humbled by your patience and extremely grateful. Perhaps the idea of the newbie mailing list isn't such a bad idea, although one wonders when a question stops being a newbie one and becomes a non-newbie one.......? Can't wait to get my hands on the TCP/IP book. >I didn't realize you were 37 btw. Age is relative (until your body falls apart I guess), however I have heard that you learn something like 75% of everything you are ever going to learn by the age of 5. If you haven't learnt language by then you can never form the correct patterns, as well. >Also as for cookery, have you noticed its very similair to computing, I compared learning linux to baking a cake for the first time with no recipe book and no idea what any of the little ingredient packets are the other day. >PS you don't fancy getting IP firewalling working on my box on sunday, I'm stuck. The very thought of being let loose on any one else's computer makes me shudder with terror. >I will be bringing a converter in the form of a hub with BNC on the back. Thanks. I may have talked two people on various forums into attending. They have a long way to come though. > Just looking at pine - downloading the files on my linux box now, proudly. >Oh, I'd've suggested Postilion, as I've been using that to good effect recently. I gave up on pine (can explain Sun if u like) and installed mutt instead. Many thanks all. Take me quietly to one side on sunday and have a word in my ear about list protocol if I'm out of order on the gossip front. Jen

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 15 Jun '01

15 Jun '01

> Main cause of problem was ignorance about how WINS and DNS work, > probably. <fx action=" clenches fists and repeats "I will say nothing, I'll say nothing"> Sorry :o) Something to do with the same way some of us aren't born with silver spoons, I unfortunately wasn't born with the knowledge of TCP/IP protocols and software oozing from my pores. ;) Seriously david - you must stop dissing me for asking about things I'm ignorant of. I was computer illiterate until three years ago, am now 37 and way past my best learning prime, didn't have such a beast as a computer in school (no, we had to do cookery and sewing), and think I'm piecing stuff together not too badly considering. If you don't feel you want to answer my questions, I don't expect that, but believe me, i spend a lot more time looking around for information on the net and in books than i do asking alug questions. If i have completely ground to a halt or feel a pointer in the right direction will help, then i'll ask - isn't that what a user group is for? OK, there could be a few hundred books out there that will supply me with the same information but m,y time and financial resources are extremely limited. The very fact I didn't know that what was with the wins and dns stuff is what stopped me going to look it up in the first place (if you follow). I tried, I floundered, I asked, the penny dropped, I tried some more and i succeeded. (New latin motto...?) Jen.

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by MJ Ray 15 Jun '01

15 Jun '01

Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com writes: > Perhaps the idea of the newbie mailing list isn't such a bad idea, although > one wonders when a question stops being a newbie one and becomes a > non-newbie one.......? Oh, I think while we're quite tolerant here, it'll all work nicely. It's easier for non-newbies to help newbies than newbies to help newbies, if that makes any sense. The intolerant or just plain overwhelmed can join alug-announce now. Anyone else want to write items for that (unedited) "newsletter"? I'll copy any articles which appear on the web site to it. > I compared learning linux to baking a cake for the first time with no > recipe book and no idea what any of the little ingredient packets are the > other day. awww ;-( And I thought the ingredients lists were enough... > >Oh, I'd've suggested Postilion, as I've been using that to good effect > I gave up on pine (can explain Sun if u like) and installed mutt instead. > Many thanks all. Take me quietly to one side on sunday and have a word in > my ear about list protocol if I'm out of order on the gossip front. Nah, just keep it clear on who's speaking where, unless it's you. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by MJ Ray 15 Jun '01

15 Jun '01

Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com writes: > Just looking at pine - downloading the files on my linux box now, proudly. Oh, I'd've suggested Postilion, as I've been using that to good effect recently. > Mark - I'm coming on Sunday with probably this debian box and a bit of > co-ax, and maybe also a laptop and a broken pcmcia. Well, a UTP/RJ45/whatever the new sort are called today would be more use, unless someone has a converter. I can't allow non-UEA machines directly onto the university network. I can only connect them via the firewall machine. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 14 Jun '01

14 Jun '01

Main cause of problem was ignorance about how WINS and DNS work, probably. Did a crash course yesterday. I'll try and do a write-up. Still got to finish the one on networking. It's hard to explain sometimes. >Now for an encore how about a kernel recompile.[1] Oh, *that*! I did that at lunchtime. Just looking at pine - downloading the files on my linux box now, proudly. Mark - I'm coming on Sunday with probably this debian box and a bit of co-ax, and maybe also a laptop and a broken pcmcia. Cheers, Jen.

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config NO-prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 14 Jun '01

14 Jun '01

Everyone! Today I have acheived getting Samba running AND getting the networking on the linux sorted, so I am currently beaming at TRX850 shares on the windows network neighbourhood browser, and lynx www.alug.org.uk on the linux box. Thanks for all the help on this. Can't believe it! Wooohoooo! I still can't send mail or receive. Is there a mail client other than balsa that i can run from cli? I think the fact we use Lotus notes for our domain mail isn't so good. Jenny.

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NEWS round up - Important news for any one who cares.
by David Freeman 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

As many of you who read Slashdot will know, corporations and, under the command of corporations, Governments, are trying there best to stiffle freedom. And the latest internatinal treaty could make things even worse. RMS sums up the details at http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/hague.html Couple this with the international cybercrime treaty. And also the RIP and private security industry act, we are in trouble. In a single ray of hope, the EU is investigating the pricing and regional encoding of DVD's, The australian government has also begun an investigation into DVD region encoding and New Zealand has made it illegal. Thats the news for this week. ---- Now for something completely different. Fun sites to view The support group for people used by microsoft http://i-want-a-website.com/about-microsoft/ And even more bazaar http://i-want-a-website.com/about-linux/ Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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humph [that was traceroute DNS thread]
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

That's put paid to that flurry of activity; one of our routers has just been replaced and now i can't ping/telnet or traceroute outside the network from win or linbox. (!N). Funny how the web and external email are still working. Outside my jurisdiction though. Thanks for help, though - pennies are slowly dropping. Ta for the info on the packages thing, as well, Mark. Jenny

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Mark, which country do you live in? We didn't elect a new governement > last weeek, the cooperations did, so what if BT is a monopoly, so what > if microsoft is a monopoly, they are spending lots of money and I can't > afford to piss them off. No matter what under the current system we are > screwed. If they were all cooperatives, things would probably be a lot better around here. Anyway, BT is a monopoly and Microsoft wants to be one. Both should be slapped back by government at every opportunity and made to behave legally. These days, we have to look to the EU to enforce these laws, which is a great shame, while our own government cheerfully helps to launch "Office xp" and screw more money out of UK business for a US corporation. See the stuff about the UK Government Gateway on uk.comp.os.linux for more of this sort of thing. It's probably off-topic here now. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config prob for mail
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com writes: > >Install the "dnsutils" package. > Gorgeous, thanks There's a bit on debian's web site http://www.uk.debian.org/ which will find out which package a given file is in. Or you can use "dpkg -S filename" on a system which has it installed, but that can be a catch 22... > DNS is disabled, WINS server is enabled, above address. Do I have to > handle this differently? I'm not sure, but you probably need to give it a working DNS. Maybe nameserver 139.222.1.5 is visible from outside UEA still? Or try your ISP's settings. Or get a local DNS. ;-) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

>Install the "dnsutils" package. Gorgeous, thanks >if you get the reply >www.alug.org.uk A 209.61.182.158 No, I get "a record cannot be found" >then your DNS resolver is working, if not you will have to look at why >name resolution is broke. (oh yeah this will only work if your lan can see >the internet) DNS is disabled, WINS server is enabled, above address. Do I have to handle this differently? Lan can indeed see internet Thanks for the help, all - perhaps I can show gratitude in the form of McVities Choc Digestives on Sun.

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

>try nslookup (host is a newer program being phased in in some distro's, >nslookup is the old one)... No, not this either. This is the debian distro Adam gave me: 2.2 r2. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Jen

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config prob for mail
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com writes: > "host: command not found" Can't find a file named host on box (debian). Install the "dnsutils" package. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] basic routing/config prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Thanks Adam - >with /usr/sbin/traceroute insert name or IP no here e.g. >/usr/sbin/traceroute 209.61.182.158 This seems to find it ok. >in /etc/resolv.conf you will want domain toby-churchill.com >nameserver 192.168.10.10 Yup. >then try typing :- >host www.alug.org.uk "host: command not found" Can't find a file named host on box (debian). Jen

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basic routing/config prob for mail
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Hi list, - get your groans ready. Quick Qs on routing: Linux box address 192.168.11.106 is on intranet 192.168.11.0 Router box address 192.168.11.100 forwards packets to router box 192.168.10.100 These are routed to server 192.168.10.10 These are then sent to the outside world. My present routing table for linux box is 192.168.11.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.0 U 0 0 0 eth0 0.0.0.0 192.168.11.100 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0 I sent a mail to myself at this win computer's address (Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com IP 192.168.11.102) as a test but I assumed as i haven't got resolv.conf (is it?) setup it would send this packet to the outside world then it would come back in. Balsa set up a mail client using localhost as SMTP server, and gave me the address root@TRX850 (where TRX850 = linuxbox name) . I think if the sent mail was going to arrive it would have by now, so failure means a couple of Q's: 1.How can I trace the packet that i sent from the linux box to see if it went anywhere? 2.What do i need to configure on the linux box to correct the non-routing event? resolv.conf is empty as yet - adding either "nameserver 192.168.10.10" and "Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com 192.168.11.102" doesn't cause stuff to arrive. 3.Surely the address @TRX850 needs to have the domain name toby-churchill.com, same as the network here? I mean, it's a GREAT address, but have I boobed? Thanks! Jen of the Questions.

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Administrivia
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Whoever emails us via "citlink.net" has got the hahaha@sexyfun thing on their computer. Please disinfect yourself and consider being more careful in future ;-) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Joss Winn <joss(a)josswinn.org> writes: > The University accomodation doesn't look that attractive after living in > my own house for the last few years, although I don't mind the sound of > some of the networked rooms available. However it is unlikely I will be > offered one. I've been told all campus rooms will be networked by Christmas at a university committee meeting yesterday. I'll leave it to others to remark about when they originally planned to have it done by. ;-) > Assuming I will look for shared accomodation or a studio flat, can > anybody tell me about the availability of cable or DSL in the area? ADSL is supposed to arrive early next year, first to Norwich City exchange, then to Norwich West a couple of weeks later, so I think that means almost all student accommodation will be covered. Clearly BT aren't quite as stupid as I give them credit for. > If anyone has _any_ advice at all regarding accomodation and computing > for a post-grad student, I'd be very grateful. Oh, beware. Many departments at the university are still what I consider "Linux-hostile". Very few (eg MTH) are Linux-friendly and most are neutral. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Neil Sedger <n.sedger(a)bigfoot.com> writes: > Really? Where'd you get that gem of info from? I've been squeezing > BT's 'no idea sir' telestaff about every 2 months for the last > year... It's on their web site somewhere. I got the URL from uk.local.east-anglia originally, I think. > Although I then spoke to BTOpenworld, the ISP that uses ADSL. *One* ISP. Personally, I'd avoid them. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > BT has the technologie and ability to role out ADSL to everyone, except > it costs so much to do. OFTEL wont let us loss lead the excersise to > allow us to get lots of penetration into the market. [...] I don't think you should use "us" here. You are not allowed to speak on the behemoth's behalf. My opinion is that BT is solely interested in screwing as much money as possible out of the current technologies (eg ISDN) before having to discount them when they introduce the superior DSL systems. If BT had our interests at heart, they would be planning to do residential DSL through the normal connectors, which I think is now possible, and wouldn't require the engineer to come and rip holes in my wall again. > Find a place with an always on connection (i.e. UEA) and then put a > 802.11b base station with highpower antenna up on the roof, directed at [...] What prices are wireless networking equipment now? Is it getting to the point where sharing a single higher speed connection among a street is an economic reality? How would the service provider view this? Shouldn't we just network ourselves anyway and sod the telcos? I seem to recall that some American towns have taken this route. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > BT is a corporation and as such has the mission of screwing money from > people, and while people are still gullable enought to be screwed, they > will continue screwing, why else do we get charged so much for things > in this country. [...] Aren't we meant to have regulators to guard against this sort of thing? It's all well and good to say "don't pay for it if it's too expensive", but there is no alternative to BT's monopoly, until wireless becomes viable for general use (and the antennae can be sited on the rooftops instead of by people). -- MJR

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alug-announce digest, Vol 1 #1 - 2 msgs
by alug-announce-admin＠stu.uea.ac.uk 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Send alug-announce mailing list submissions to alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug-announce or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to alug-announce-request(a)stu.uea.ac.uk You can reach the person managing the list at alug-announce-admin(a)stu.uea.ac.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of alug-announce digest..." oMMMoMo Mo MMMMMMMoMo " "o"o"o"o oMMMoMoM oMMMMMM"MMM" " " " " " "o"o "oMMMoMMM " oMo"M"oo MM" " MoMoMMMMMMM oM " " "oMMM " " MoMMMMMoMoMoooo Mo MMM MoMoMMMMMoMMMMM o" MoM " MoMM "MMo"oMoMMMoM"" MM " MMMMo MMMMMoMMMMMM" oM " MoMMM MMMoMMMo"MM Mo" "MMoMo ooMMMMMMMoMo" oMo oMoMMM " "oMoMMMoMoMo MoM oMoMMM MMMMMMMMMoMMM "oM oMoMMM "M"M"MMoMMMo" " o "oo " MMMM" MMMMMoMoM o" " "oM " " " "o MMMoMMMo"o M " oM " " MMMMMMMoMo o" "oMoMoooMo" " o " " MMoMMMoMoMo " "o"o MM"""""""oM oM " "MMo oMMMMMoMMMoMo " """ """ " o"MMMMoMMMoMMMo"MMo"o" o o o oo MMMMMMoMMMoMMMoMoMo MMMMM MMMo oMMM MMMo MMoMMM oMoMMMoMMMoMMMoMMMo"o oMMMMM MMMo oMMM "MMo MMM "MM MMMMMMMoMMMMMMMoMMMM" " " MMo"MMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM" """ " MoMMMoMMMoMMMo" " " MMMoMMMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM"oMoMo " "MMoMMMoMMM " " MMMMMMMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM" "MM oMMMoMoMoMMMoMMMoMo" " oMM" "oMM" "MMMMM" "MMMMM" MMMoMM" ooMMMMMMMoMMMMMMMoMMMoMo "M" " " " " " """ """ "oM """oMM" " " "MMoMMMoMMMoMM" " " " " " " " alug-announce : The Newsletter of the Anglian Linux User Group Today's Topics: 1. ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 (MJ Ray) 2. Newsletter mailing list (MJ Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk Cc: lwn(a)lwn.net From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 12 Jun 2001 16:29:56 +0100 Subject: [ALUG-announce] ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 Announce: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!) The next ALUG meeting will be at our UEA Norwich venue as a guest of tsw.org.uk (the student web) on Sunday 17th June 2001 2:00pm - 6:00pm. We hope to hold a demonstration of some wireless networking, security attacks (very likely), a discussion of security measures (almost certain), and a practical exercise on configuring printers (quite likely). Further meeting details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/meetings/year2/meeting9.html Venue details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/venues/uea.html. If you are coming please email me on (alug at towers.org.uk) with details of any kit you are bringing so we can update the web site. Please mail the list if you have any requests for help or would like a demonstration of anything specific and we will try to accommodate if at all possible. tsw will provide tables, chairs and some networking, while drinks and food vending machines are available. There is no entrance charge to this venue, but refreshment facilities other than the above may be limited. It is anticipated that we will move to a pub after the meeting. -- MJR --__--__-- Message: 2 To: alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 12 Jun 2001 20:04:36 +0100 Subject: [ALUG-announce] Newsletter mailing list If you can see this, it means that the alug-announce mailing list is working. My intention is to publish short newsletters of "the best of ALUG" for people who find 500 messages a week too much to handle. There will at most one issue a day, and usually a lot less. It will be sent to the main alug list too, so you don't need to subscribe to both. (Is this a good idea? I think so...) Once again, I need your help: I need people to write short summaries of popular threads and send them to alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk for possible inclusion in the next edition. Anything else you want to write should also be sent there, including short articles of general interest. The web site will be updated to reflect the new list tonight. -- MJR --__--__-- _______________________________________________ alug-announce mailing list alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug-announce End of alug-announce Digest

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online services in Norwich question
by Joss Winn 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Hello, I will be returning to the UK in six weeks and will begin an MA at UEA in September. I received information about accomodation at the University residences yesterday and am hoping list members in Norwhich can advise me on a couple of things regarding networking and accomodation in the area. The University accomodation doesn't look that attractive after living in my own house for the last few years, although I don't mind the sound of some of the networked rooms available. However it is unlikely I will be offered one. Assuming I will look for shared accomodation or a studio flat, can anybody tell me about the availability of cable or DSL in the area? Am I likely to find it, how much will it cost? It is quite a high priority of mine to be on a 24/7 connection, and would influence my choice of accomodation while in Norwich for the year. I have spent the last three years on a crappy dial-up connection paying way, way too much money for it (over 100 quid a month) and would really like to get the connection I've been dreaming of all this time, once I begin at UEA. If anyone has _any_ advice at all regarding accomodation and computing for a post-grad student, I'd be very grateful. thanks. Looking forward to meeting you all. please cc me if it is not too much trouble. Joss

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RE: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by Quantrill, Simon 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

I agree, however the nearest hub is Lowestoft I know cause I run it!!, but it is at present only connectable at rates of a shared 9600 port, there is a move to go 2 meg in the microwave band and although it is connected to the internet 24/7 I do not allow people through it from the radio to the internet. 1. Cause my ISP dont allow it 2. It would break my licensing conditions 2. Cause i have to pay for the internet connection!! However you do need a license There was a site that were setting up local (non amateur)radio internet connections using wavelan and airconnect stuff not to sure of the web site but that was radio path connections up to about 11mb and it was license free!! so I guess if a site like the UEA were to put up a gateway and people in the area installed the wavelan gear it would work ok!!! Simon Quantrill Principle Infrastructure Engineer Lotus Cars PLC +44(0)1953 608491 -----Original Message----- From: wbh [mailto:W.B.Hill@uea.ac.uk] Sent: 12 June 2001 14:31 To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Adam Bower wrote: > for the bit of string that connects your house to the ISP. Is it possible > to use HAM radio for net connections? there seems to be plenty of things > in the Linux kernel for it. Short answer - you don't want to go there. Long answer. 9600 baud is considered fast. You need a licence. The radio "internet" isn't connected to the real one. You need someone within range who's prepared to accept your traffic, last time I checked (about 3 years) that meant Cambridge, which meant I'd need an antenna the size of a pylon, or to learn morse... (--- ... :-) There was talk of a 1.5Mbit link, but I haven't heard anthing in a while, and that was on one of the microwave bands. Welcome to the twilight zone where valves are the vogue and your circuit looks like it's a particularly tricky plumbing problem. _______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! ____________________________________________________________________ "This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the IT Call Centre by telephone on 44 (0) 1953 608000." postmaster(a)lotuscars.co.uk http://www.lotuscars.co.uk http://www.lotuseng.com

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by brodders＠cwcom.net 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Hi all, I've been with NTL (initially Bell Cable Media via Mercury, then C&W, now NTL) since mid '97. NTL World does not exist in Norwich, the old Mercury exchange will not support it. I've had the NTL World CD from early last year - but the local exchange has not routing for / does not recognise the NTL World 0800 number. Pressing NTL abount this has repeatedly given "coming in a few months" answer. Last time I asked (c. March '01) I got a story about NTL wondering if they should roll out the existing NTL World on V.90 kit OR jump to all-digital. Latter route is strategic but needs a new exchange = even more money & time. NTL are supplying digital TV here, so it might change. Let's call them now... 5 people later: OK. Broadband replaces NTL World, there are no roll-out dates for the Norwich area for Broadband. The sales drone I spoke to could only parrot that; they knew no more. DHYB Steve >On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Joss Winn wrote: > >> So is this BT deal, just a 56k dialup? Has 128K ISDN taken off in the >> UK? It's all the rage here in Japan. > >I havn't heard of any FRIACO ISP's that allow 128k ISDN? is this now >available?, there are now other FRIACO deals where some ISP's are >allocating a fixed amount of time online for a fixed fee. This is what I >am using at the moment and I don't get kicked after 2 hours (but I havn't >found out what happens if I use more than my allocated time yet). > >If you are in a NTL Cable serviced area and want cable tv and take NTL's >package you should automagically get two telephone lines and free dial-up >with NTL World, this would give you a 2 hour kick off but I do know >someone at work who is using this with automatic recconection for over a >year to get free 24/7 access. I don't know if this applys in Norwich >though as it is an old C&W serviced area, although the Digital tv has just >been launched there which means Cable Modems should not be to far behind. > >Oh yeah and if NTL release Cable modems in Norwich you will probably >find BT will magically offer ADSL about a week after launch, and the reverse >of that statement is also probably true. :) > >hmm, still seems dial-up in the UK isn't cheap, you just pay loads upfront >now for a fixed time online... > >Adam >-- >This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed >Adam > > > > >_______________________________________________ >alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list >Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk >http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug >See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! >

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Sunday
by David Freeman 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

All, If you want any books for the weekend, email me by wednesday lunch time. I will need cash or money transfer or cheque tho. Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] add-on page
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

People looking for another web scripted system are solving the wrong problem. Access is perfectly possible, it's just that not enough people are doing it. After the last "pretty web front end" failed, I did what people wanted then and made it XML/XSL. I'll help anyone get started with it (email me!), although you'll hopefully understand it if I (or someone else) checks over people's first page or two to make sure the web site survives. ;-) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

MJ Ray <mjr(a)stats.mth.uea.ac.uk> writes: > Let me know today if possible so I can change the room booking if > necessary, please. Argh, sorry, room not available. 17th it has to be. See some of you there and I'll push out the announcement first thing tomorrow morning. -- MJR

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MS Exchange Server
by govind chandra (JIC) 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Hello, Does anybody know how to get one's email from a MS Exchange Server in Linux? What I want to know is, if it is possible to query Exchange Server like POP3 or IMAP servers. Email is the only thing that I have to boot into windows for and use outlook. Govind Chandra

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RE: [Alug] add-on page
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

>Eventually I would still like to see a system like PHP Website (see >http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu) as the central engine for the ALUG site as >that would then allow for admins/authors (permissions can be set for >approval/submission access, etc) to make changes to the site without the >need for FTP or shell access - everything will be added/amended through a >MySQL database and PHP code. Just an idea - feel free to bash me about with >a frying pan if you don't like it :) >Regards,Martyn Not knowing anything about this, I can't comment too loudly, but perhaps even if it would be a hassle to begin with it would reduce work for the site manager in the long run....individual folks can be in charge of and update their own stuff. Jenny.

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

>....and I think that to get new members... Look out. They might ask strings of ridiculous questions. (Speaking of which...) Web page is ready. Having never done one before I shall simply await instruction from above. Jenny.

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Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Wheels are in motion for the 17th, but people are indicating Father's Day is a bad day for a meeting. Will this seriously hit attendance? Do we want to: 1. Go ahead as planned 2. Postpone to the following Sunday ? Let me know today if possible so I can change the room booking if necessary, please. MJR

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add-on page
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Hi all, I've just about finished a web page for alug listing sites and books. (I was going to have the How I Did The NIC Thing on there too but not done it yet). I haven't got a domain and recoil at the thought of Freeserve's free space cluttering it up with banners, so is there a way I can plonk it up on the alug site? Re. relative links....(eg the alug logo), will they be in the same directory? Jen.

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

1. Go ahead as planned 2. Postpone to the following Sunday Either suits me ok. A shame to break B John's long-standing tradition of attending meetings. Jenny.

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Weekly IRC meeting reminder
by Adam Bower 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

This is the automated ALUG irc meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an irc meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.openprojects.net in the #alug channel, you can take a look at www.openprojects.net to get more info on the openprojects network. Popular irc clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and ircII on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.bitchx.com http://www.xchat.org http://freshmeat.net http://www.epicsol.org/ (for Brett!) Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Exactly. The english language is a self referential incomplete system ( > i.e. recuresion to recursion) and by using a meta language - UML - we > can desribe things without the self referentailism. ...but instead UML is defined in English which is a self-referential... you get the idea ;-) > I think you mean spiral [...] Instead of what? "Waterfall" rings a bell from my Systems Engineering course many years ago. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!)
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

"Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wilkinson.uk.com> writes: > I hate to be the one to say this but I think it's worth pointing out that > 17th June is Father's day and some of us may have other commitments that > day, especially those travelling a long distance. Oh well, where were you 10 days ago? Bit late to change now, unless there's an overwhelming outcry. I'll hold the announcement back until tomorrow just in case. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > Anyway, imperative-OO still has "do this, do that" at its core... > Not if used properly. its more on event x do y etc... Still, imperative. [...] > True. I wasn't there so can't comment much. but how was the program > spec defined? I'm not too clear on that (I was just trying to assess technical skills), but copiously specified by recognised experts from partner institutions. ;-) > prototypes? you design it in pseudo code, Yippee, non-testable code! > this then becomes your comments as you write code round them. All > languages(well most) have the same basic principles of sequence > selection and interation. Read Code Complete by Steve Mcconnell. Is it a book, article, kiwi fruit, sth else? You're describing imperative programming again, but that's irrelevant here. -- MJR

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Assumptions and Paradoxes Re: ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > Have to pretty much try this. Having some sort of deposits may be a > > good move, but who holds them? > In a per-to-peer system? good question, in a centralised system? the > librarian. So who is the librarian with lots of space and time for travelling? No-one, I suspect. [assumptions] > So basically you are using one incomplete system for prove another > incomplete system? An assumption is object with no evidence of fact > backing it up which is used to help prove one system. And as such they > are the mother of all f*** ups. No, assumptions are essential to any logic system. You may not like them because they can't be proved, but you can't do anything without them. Did you know that the commonly-taught version of mathematical set theory has assumptions which lead to logical inconsistencies? A good example is Russell's paradox, the set of all sets which do not contain themselves. There was a long effort early last century to define a set theory which was free of inconsistencies. My memory is not perfect, but I don't think that it succeeded. Therefore, I propose that any system will have flaws arising from its assumptions. The best we can hope for is minor flaws, but by making the assumptions relevant, we can get something which serves us well. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff, part 2
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

<skirmish type="horseback" carrying="scythe"> David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Why not use a sensible system? Why not write the front end in Java and > use the JDBC? <slay with="scythe" reason="playing devil's advocate">David Freeman</slay> <fx type="blood-curdling scream" /> </skirmish> Oh, and now find the system which is running the library in Java with JDBC... > Also don't forget the need to stocktake and do a check on integrity. > Stocktake can be done on the fly, ie when an item goes through the > hands of a trusted party - the item can be "audited". Another table > becons. I imagine the integrity check to er um prove transactions > are ordered OK vs datestamp sequence, If you accept items which have moved successfully recently, you only have to get the original issue codes from the holders of the other books to make sure they still have it and accept responsibility for it. Flag anything that hasn't moved for ages or has moved unsuccessfully for investigation by the admin. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > we think > a has the facilities to do x y and y > b inherites the functionaility from a and adds p q r and s > OO is better for modern software. Some people may, but I see a process as a composition of processes carried out by actors. Imperative-OO is just so much overhead to this viewpoint. Anyway, imperative-OO still has "do this, do that" at its core... > Read UML in a nutshell and get back to me, and also phone the poor sod > and give him the Job, he sounds like he may know what he's talking > about. Formally proving programs, nice :o) Sure, he'd be good for a job, but not a job where we needed someone to design applications to an already-defined specification and deal with a large backlog of data to be processed. Horse for courses ;-) At the very least, he was off-beam with his pitch. > > > > > Good code is code which meets the needs of the application and > > > > > doesn't crash. [...] > > > > Being written is a prerequisite for these. > > > No its not, being written well is the prerequisite. > > How is being written not a prereq for being written well? ;-) > You obviously aren't in the camp of designing bugs out of programs. Yes, but how can you design without prototypes? Show me someone who can make things without ever experimenting and I'll show you some angels on the head of a pin... > I'm no expert in this sort fo stuff, but I do know that the whole > relational Paradigm and the OO paradigm are very closely tide in, ARF! -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: David, trim your quotes, please. ;-) > Centralisation. As much as I like the idea of the Peer-to-peer > networking technique it, like most ideas, is only applicable to certain > tasks, and I believe this isn't one of those. I think a hybrid of > peer-to-peer and centrailised systems much like napster would be a good > solutions. Well, this has been covered in the earlier messages, but unless we have this p2p scheme, then either books will have to only change hands at our irregularly-spaced meetings when the borrowers are both present or whoever is the librarian will have to travel a lot. > I may also model the relational scheme or I may do it as objects to be > written in java. Oi! Implementation issues! Make your mind up! ;^) [...] > "yes, Joh do you have the book I gave you at the last meet?" > "No I wasn't at the last meet" > "So who got that book then?" This is why the ticket-code system was being mooted. As I understand it, it could work like this: the prospective borrower gets a release code on their request which is also sent to the current borrower. The current borrower checks that the person asking for the book has this release code when handing the book over, then confirms the handover to the library system, once again with the code. > I will have to confiscate your fine adjustment tool at the next meet. > Every engineer knows that a large ajustable spanner works better, after > all it has more uses than just bugdening something :o) Adjustable spanners are crap. They break when you bludgeon things with them. > oh goody an interative development process. Is this sarcasm or not? :-S -- MJR

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ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!)
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

Announce: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!) The next ALUG meeting will be at our UEA Norwich venue as a guest of tsw.org.uk (the student web) on Sunday 17th June 2001 2:00pm - 6:00pm. We hope to hold a demonstration of some security attacks (very likely), a discussion of security measures (almost certain) and a practical exercise on configuring printers (quite likely). Venue details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/venues/uea.html. If you are coming please email me on (alug at towers.org.uk) with details of any kit you are bringing so we can update the web site. Please mail the list if you have any requests for help or would like a demonstration of anything specific and we will try to accommodate if at all possible. tsw will provide tables, chairs and some networking, while drinks and food vending machines are available. There is no entrance charge to this venue, but refreshment facilities other than the above may be limited. It is anticipated that we will move to a pub after the meeting. I'll post this to relevant Usenet groups later today if no-one has upgrades? (And of course "waaaaaaaaaaaah the web site is out of control" again.) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > This is cos you probalby have no formal training in systems analysis. > once you try and use them they will become second nature, have a look > at the book "UML in a nutshell" it explains it all, I was like you I > ignored it all untill I understood how it would all work, I now will > try and use UML for my software to improve it. Well, I'll take a look, but the majority of systems analysis methods appeared to be focused on the object-orientated imperative paradigm, which isn't where I usually (want to) live. Am I wrong on this? Would I be able to use UML in my work? I know that I've been on panels rejecting a candidate who started spouting about using UML. (OK, they were also talking about Z, formally proving programs and other things we didn't want for a "data juggler" who had to start with a backlog of data which had already had its format designed by experts elsewhere ;-) ) > > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/pipermail/alug/2001-May/001083.html > > Only Brett seemed to criticise it... > Critisie my scheme or my methods? Scheme afaict. > > > Good code is code which meets the needs of the application and > > > doesn't crash. [...] > > Being written is a prerequisite for these. > No its not, being written well is the prerequisite. How is being written not a prereq for being written well? ;-) > > Is an RDBMS appropriate, or should we just assume an OO backing > > store? > true, but the principles are the same, they all boil down to designing > a relationa scheme which then needs to be normalised, and as relational > theory is based on set theory as is OO theory the design is applicable > to both, hence my keeping animplementation independent view of things. The realities of modern RDBMSs with all the triggers and code inside the database seems to be quite far from pure set theory to me. There's quite a nice piece about it in the most recent VSJ, I think. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > I never got around to ripping it a part. The problems are > 1) Based on assumptions > a) People are honest Have to pretty much try this. Having some sort of deposits may be a good move, but who holds them? > b) People will notice books have gone astray Send out "please confirm your borrowing" emails and email the maintainers or this list if people don't answer? > c) People will return books Same as a, surely? > In that case you haven't modelled the system properly. You can't start > programming till you have a decent enough idea of how it will work. > incedentally I will have a modell created by mondays IRC. It seems this model is slipping further and further back... > There needs to be a dead line for collection and for loans, but you > would have modelled this in the functional requirements. Unless we discuss this thing, how do we find these things out? I don't believe any initial model will get all of these things right first time. > And what are assumptions? Assumptions are beliefs which you accept as truths in order to build a logical system. They cannot be proved, but they are used to prove other results. I would have thought you'd know that, having used the word so freely... -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by brodders＠cwcom.net 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

Hi David! ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Freeman" <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> To: <alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff > > --- brodders(a)cwcom.net wrote: > > > > Migod! ALUG Library's...come back to life! > > My<insert object of worship here (Linux torvolds, RMS, ESR, Steve Jobs, > sarah michelle gella etc...)> it has come back to life, RUN! :) poor poor linus .. like it! > > OK so no-ones ripped a new one in the idea of a peer-peer ALUG > > Library. That's > > nice; I assumed we'd go that way so I've quietly been doodling > > around with > > the concepts. > > I never got around to ripping it a part. The problems are > > 1) Based on assumptions > a) People are honest > b) People will notice books have gone astray > c) People will return books yes. It's either that or it gets real difficult. Seriously, casual fraud is the only real threat if people try to use the system at all, the system will know who's got what. From this stocktake data is available. The threat is that people just ignore the system, pass things around & it collapses into one big muddle. I don't know how we can stop this one. > > Have not thought about consequences of wandering people; don't think > > it's too > > much of a problem insofar it's generic & will not go away. I'm for > > doing no > > more than normal add-person, delete/edit person etc. Um? fine person? > > New joiners > > give a sub which they get back when they go LESS losses? Could be > > expensive. > > Perhaps a borrowing cap is in order. Another table... NOPE a new > > attributes > > of the Person table; default say 4. > > In that case you haven't modelled the system properly. You can't start > programming till you have a decent enough idea of how it will work. > > incedentally I will have a modell created by mondays IRC. excellent. Will it have pictures? I like pictures. > > This might as well be a progress report on what I've done, so here > > goes. > > > > Top level concepts as last reported + thoughts on this issue: > > > > Are there any issues if item passed to wrong person. Example: > > Person A has WonderBook which everyone wants. Person's B,C,D etc. > > request it. > > B is at top of list. > > Yes. What happens to person B and C do they still remain at places 1 > and 2 in the list? What if they ask for the book to be mailed to them? > > > At the next meet everyone is there except B. Oh dear - a ruck forms; > > A & book > > disappear from view & when tussle clears D has made off with it. > > "Well, B had > > their chance." > > See above. > > > Is this legal? Don't see why not; B could well miss a meet & it seems > > fine to > > me that someone else gets the book. For this to work, everyone must > > have been > > issued a key to give A. That may mean another table for the > > confirmation keys > > rather then finding a home for <the one key> in say the Transaction > > table. > > There needs to be a dead line for collection and for loans, but you > would have modelled this in the functional requirements. > Why? This is at heart a stock control system, in the guise of stock tracking. If an item stays on a shelf for a month, does it need permission to stay there for another month? Is there actually a need to have controlled returns if we know where the item is? We do not have to model our system on anyone else's ideas of how libraries work. > > Alternatively if it's NOT OK to passover B - what then? Perhaps C > > only should > > be allowed to have the book, not D as decided in the tussle? > > Let me think on this one. > > > My instinct is that the more flexible the better; so I'd plump for > > "issue N > > confirmation keys & let people decide for themselves". There are more > > arguments > > around this area (the confirmation key is now effectively a person > > ID, so why > > keep on scrambling it?) but overall I'm happy with this. It's more > > secure / > > difficult to defraud this way. > > see above comment > Ultimately - to be perfect the complexity of the solution must mirror the complexity inherent in the problem domain. Or, lop off minor complexities / degrees of freedom in the problem deliberately to straightjacket (= simplify) the solution. I actually sent myself to sleep a few weeks ago thinking about issues arising from trying to correct out-of-order borrowing & impacts on issued keys. Danger Will Robinson - don't go there! Let's make it simple. > > Next up, db progress. > > > > Postgres is wonderful, BUT as I had everything to hand to get going > > with MySQL > > so I made a start using it (also I had another project which used > > MySQL). > > Fine any DBMS should do the job, even access should work, if designed > properly. > > > Now when I make a start I explore problem areas. This ties in with my > > design > > assumptions - which are that everything's easy - except for the > > problems. So > > I want to know - what are the problems & where are they? Once these > > are conquered > > I can go back to sleep (=base mode). > > And what are assumptions? That everything is easy apart from the difficult bits. And, where it ain't easy, I hits it with this here hammer until it gets simple :) What I'm saying is that people can make things work - if the things are possible to work at all. So, explore what's more possible vs. what's less (or im)possible. This is based on a top-down development view which says "don't rely on things which can't be made to work". Idea is to identify the easy / practical route; this means proof-of-concept tests needed when going into new areas. Once a solution strategy is found possible, getting it working is through dint of effort; leg-work if you will. That's what the next bit is about - I needed a way of proving the solution strategy. > > > First up I needed a model environment, so I put together a box > > networked to > > a PC. There's the server, here's the client <this included a big > > diversion fighting > > various Linux distros; they didn't like the ancient embedded video on > > the server>. > > MySQL goes in, fight with that. Many minor mistakes; finally import a > > test database > > - for the other project; but principles established. Install MyODBC > > onto the > > PC; that is a success. > > sounds like the usual linux development problems. :) > > Next up - how to actually do it? I want a RAD or sumfin'. > > How about doing it the real way and telneting in and using SQL? yep that works too; 's how I did the import & initial table setup etc. > > Access works well via the ODBC, but that's not PC. Hm. StarOffice > > 5.2! It sort > > of works and crashes but it's just about usable; snag it it doesn't > > quite fit > > MySQL nicely. > > hmmm? Subtle unhappynesses which seem to be connected with.. SO5.2 doesn't like base data types used by MySQL, strikes attitudes about keys, crashes when it feels like. Teeters on usable; often just pulls a trick. The MyODBC drivers seem fine with SO though. I can fix table layout shenanigans using SQL.. & my hammer awaits if it needs it's mind changed. > > At this point I was going to make a start putting some default forms > > together. > > OK not for the final system; they'll have to be over the web. But > > these are > > 1st shot functional screens to get things going; SO5.2 has a GUI > > editor all > > drag'n'dropish with predefined stuff (fields, buttons, pull down > > lists etc) > > & that's nice esp. when it accesses the remote test MySQL db and I > > see real > > data in the fields on my PC. At that point I went on holiday & now > > it's now. > > Have you defined the queries necessary to support the application? In SQL, no, but have worked up notes giving the expectations (delivered functionality) for these. Mostly they are obvious add/delete/edit for the main tables apart from reports & the tricky bits most tricky being the transaction models for requesting & borrowing. That's why I raise the issues re librarian/peer-peer; these are key process assumptions. Also don't forget the need to stocktake and do a check on integrity. Stocktake can be done on the fly, ie when an item goes through the hands of a trusted party the item can be "audited". Another table becons. I imagine the integrity check to er um prove transactions are ordered OK vs datestamp sequence, run through transactions and prove the items / persons etc tie in and make sense. Thanks! Steve > > > Be Warned - I'm not a coder (well not in the last 15 years). > > Neither am I nor am I a Systems analyis, but I think as a group we will > muddle through > > Thanks > > D > > > Bye Bye for now! > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ > > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub!

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Re: [Alug] Meeting poster
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > any parking available ?? also some basic directions might be nice ;) Yes. I'll add the actual venue info URL to it. -- MJR

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Meeting poster
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

Postscript of a poster is available from my web site at http://www.towers.org.uk/alug/poster2001-6.ps.gz Please use it. The proper announcement will follow as soon as I've got control (or at least figured out why I don't have control) of the web site. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by brodders＠cwcom.net 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

Migod! ALUG Library's...come back to life! OK so no-ones ripped a new one in the idea of a peer-peer ALUG Library. That's nice; I assumed we'd go that way so I've quietly been doodling around with the concepts. Have not thought about consequences of wandering people; don't think it's too much of a problem insofar it's generic & will not go away. I'm for doing no more than normal add-person, delete/edit person etc. Um? fine person? New joiners give a sub which they get back when they go LESS losses? Could be expensive. Perhaps a borrowing cap is in order. Another table... NOPE a new attributes of the Person table; default say 4. This might as well be a progress report on what I've done, so here goes. Top level concepts as last reported + thoughts on this issue: Are there any issues if item passed to wrong person. Example: Person A has WonderBook which everyone wants. Person's B,C,D etc. request it. B is at top of list. At the next meet everyone is there except B. Oh dear a ruck forms; A & book disappear from view & when tussle clears D has made off with it. "Well, B had their chance." Is this legal? Don't see why not; B could well miss a meet & it seems fine to me that someone else gets the book. For this to work, everyone must have been issued a key to give A. That may mean another table for the confirmation keys rather then finding a home for <the one key> in say the Transaction table. Alternatively if it's NOT OK to passover B what then? Perhaps C only should be allowed to have the book, not D as decided in the tussle? My instinct is that the more flexible the better; so I'd plump for "issue N confirmation keys & let people decide for themselves". There are more arguments around this area (the confirmation key is now effectively a person ID, so why keep on scrambling it?) but overall I'm happy with this. It's more secure / difficult to defraud this way. Next up, db progress. Postgres is wonderful, BUT as I had everything to hand to get going with MySQL so I made a start using it (also I had another project which used MySQL). Now when I make a start I explore problem areas. This ties in with my design assumptions which are that everything's easy - except for the problems. So I want to know what are the problems & where are they? Once these are conquered I can go back to sleep (=base mode). First up I needed a model environment, so I put together a box networked to a PC. There's the server, here's the client <this included a big diversion fighting various Linux distros; they didn't like the ancient embedded video on the server>. MySQL goes in, fight with that. Many minor mistakes; finally import a test database for the other project; but principles established. Install MyODBC onto the PC; that is a success. Next up how to actually do it? I want a RAD or sumfin'. Access works well via the ODBC, but that's not PC. Hm. StarOffice 5.2! It sort of works and crashes but it's just about usable; snag it it doesn't quite fit MySQL nicely. At this point I was going to make a start putting some default forms together. OK not for the final system; they'll have to be over the web. But these are 1st shot functional screens to get things going; SO5.2 has a GUI editor all drag'n'dropish with predefined stuff (fields, buttons, pull down lists etc) & that's nice esp. when it accesses the remote test MySQL db and I see real data in the fields on my PC. At that point I went on holiday & now it's now. Be Warned I'm not a coder (well not in the last 15 years). Bye Bye for now! Steve

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 09 Jun '01

09 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > No somebody who has learnt the hardway that you need to design the > code, if nothing else to design the bugs out. I'm not ont for creating > BIG designs etc... just nice highlevel concept diagrams and other > USEFUL things like that. Yeah, pretty pictures. Everyone likes pretty pictures. 'cept me. I'll take a good explanation over a specialised diagram requiring a key almost any time. > How can you say that? I originally posted a relational scheme to the > list and was told tht it was naive and was lacking and some other > scheme were posted, had we designed it correctly we would have the > scheme ok first time round. http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/pipermail/alug/2001-May/001083.html Only Brett seemed to criticise it... > [...] What we must avoid like the plague is making assumptions, any > engineer ot scientist will tell you that an assumption is the mother > of all f*** ups. What am I? A pomegranate? > Good code is code which meets the needs of the application and > doesn't crash. [...] Being written is a prerequisite for these. > Good. For now we need to just assume we have a RDBMS until the point > when we have the design done. Is an RDBMS appropriate, or should we just assume an OO backing store? -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 09 Jun '01

09 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > [...] We are analysing a system here and we need to maintain an > implementation specific view of things until we get into the design > stage. As I can see things, we skipped the feasibilty stage and also > the analysis and Design stages, and thus we have arrived at the > implementation phase with some major lack of designs. ARRRRRRRRRRGH -- another "big design" fan? Do the phrases "you aren't gonna need it" and "do the simplest thing that could possibly work" mean anything to you? http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ExtremeProgrammingRoadmap I mean, yes, let's design this thing, and the start of this thread is a good starting point, but let's not waste time procrastinating and drawing pretty pictures of the system. Good code is written code, before anything else. > [...] Can we get anything on the alug.org.uk hosts in the way > of either mysql or postgres? I don't know, but I'd expect so, or at least a hostname pointed somewhere that did. -- MJR

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[alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions] Recommended Linux Reference Books??
by MJ Ray 09 Jun '01

09 Jun '01

Here's a thread from elsewhere about something we discussed... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:49:41 GMT From: "X_Factor6" <m.tiesman(a)home.com> Subject: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> what are some good reference books for Linux?? I already have a couple from O'reilly & Associates. Let me know Thanks. X_Factor6 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 03:04:28 +0200 From: "R.V. Gronoff" <regis.gronoff(a)laposte.net> Subject: Re: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <9fp951$5af5t$1(a)ID-77205.news.dfncis.de> References: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> "Linux Essential Reference", by Raymond Debonne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:13:53 GMT From: jayfar(a)netaxs.com (Jayfar) Subject: Re: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <slrn9i12a0.44s.jayfar(a)access.netaxs.com> References: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> I'm looking at a cow-orker's copy of "Linux - The Complete Reference," 4th edition (2001), by Richard Peterson, which includes info on 2.4 kernel. It's from Osborne, ISBN #0-07-212940-9 and weighs in at a hefty 1200+ pages. Jayfar - - Netaxs Network Operations Center ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 08:26:27 -0500 From: David Douthitt <ssrat(a)mailbag.com> Subject: Re: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <3B20D283.703E5F3D(a)mailbag.com> References: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To me, every UNIX administrator and every UNIX power user should have the following book: * "UNIX in a Nutshell", by Daniel Gilley and the staff of O'Reilly & Assoc. You didn't say what sort of books you wanted: * Technical? * Programming? * Administration? * Introductory? However, I would recommend the "....Unleashed" series - like "Linux Unleashed" and "Red Hat Linux Unleashed." Also likely a good source is "Running Linux" published by O'Reilly. Also, when you go looking at books, don't just look at Linux books, but also at generic UNIX books - stay away from version specific books (like Unixware or Solaris or HP-UX) - they all have their differences. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:22:33 +0100 From: SteveCampbell <the.goonden(a)ntlspamworld.com> Subject: Re: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <La5U6.19288$YB3.2950923(a)news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> References: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit the best and most relevant docs are on your system ot at www.linuxdoc.org having said that, you are probably like me and much prefer printed stuff you can relax with over a coffee. Just remember that other source of info as it is invaluable. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:15:01 -0000 From: rodsmith(a)speaker.rodsbooks.com (Rod Smith) Subject: Re: Recommended Linux Reference Books?? Message-ID: <ti1ug55cl3dn39(a)corp.supernews.com> References: <VFST6.30136$Q9.6942135(a)news1.elmhst1.il.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The field of Linux books is pretty broad. There are tutorial books, reference books, etc.; and these cover Linux generally, Linux networking, Linux programming, etc., as well as sub-sets of these (like books on specific servers). I've got a Web page with suggestions in several categories at http://www.rodsbooks.com/books/. (That page features my own books, so I can't claim to be an unbiased source of information. ;-) Sub-pages include some suggestions on books by others, though.) - - Rod Smith, rodsmith(a)rodsbooks.com http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux & multi-OS configuration ------------------------------ End of Digest ************* -- MJR Member of the Anglian Linux User Group, UK Meets every month or so and OPN #alug on Mondays at 2000 UK http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/

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Re: [Alug] Pingful success at last!
by MJ Ray 08 Jun '01

08 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Perhaps a more detailed account of what was wrong and how it was fixed > could go on the web so that others who have this problem can get it > fixed. Email it to me. It may motivate me to fix the repository and bring the site up to date. -- MJR

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Pingful success at last!
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 08 Jun '01

08 Jun '01

Let me share my joy with you! After weeks and weeks of trying i have got the linux box at work networked. I'm sitting here with such a grin on my face. First I changed the DLink card for a 3com. Then I struggled with addresses and finally changed the io and irq on the card and matched up the box. Then i fiddled and diddled for ages not seeing what i had done wrong. Then SomeOne Who Knows looked at my box and found out it was using the AUI port rather than the BNC. Then I tried a 3c5x9config utility debian has but got tied in knots. Finally i did the boot-into-dos trick, and ran a 3com config exe file and changed the port. Now it pings, pongs, pangs. Happiness. Joy. Rapture. (sad, sad)

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

brodders(a)cwcom.net writes: > This is a repost as the original didn't seem to turn up - or if it > did, no - one commented! Not that it didn't appear, just that I don't have enough time. > I don't like this - would you do it? - so I've been kicking around the > idea of allowing casual person-person item passing. These need to be > verified transactions on the database otherwise fraud is simple. The > protocol I suggest below is - good enough?? Comments appreciated. Peer to peer! Trendy. I can't see any obvious problems with the ticketing system, though. > I want to encrypt the lot; ideally the entire database. And the > transactions from server to client must be secure too otherwise login > accounts get compromised. Perhaps we can just find somewhere to run the web site over https connections and use the mailing list passwords? Or somehow else store details for it. Perhaps using encrypted email or something. Is there a security guru in the house? -- MJR

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Freemans Book emporium
by David Freeman 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

I can now also get the following Publishers as well. Sybex O'Reilly Harvard University Press MIT WW Norton Yale University Press University Presses of California, Columbia and Princeton Chicago University Press Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Deadrat Transfers
by David Freeman 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

Can any one explain quickly how redhat configures its FTP server. I want to allow a user called ftpuser to ftp in but it wont let me. What do I need to edit? Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > well.. it's possible to do a network upgrade from a ftp/http/nfs server > if you want to give that a try, either way you will still need to use a > large quantify of bandwidth to get the files from a remote server to > your machine... OK, how? It's bound to be less than 650Mb of compressed packages... Bandwidth isn't a major problem, but wasting CDs and time is. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Using NFS on web-connected machines
by MJ Ray 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

"Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wiggis.com> writes: > Anyone got any advice/pros/cons on running NFS on machines that are > permanently connected to the net. I may be moving one of our clients to a > load-balancing situation at some point and need to share some directories > out to make this happen. Make sure that the outside world can't access nfs on the machines. Whether you do this with ipchains/iptables or try to use hosts.deny to limit it is up to you. That's the main thing to bear in mind. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Ref Meeting
by MJ Ray 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

Danny Thorp <danny(a)thorp.fsworld.co.uk> writes: > Where and what is The Hive? A bar at UEA. Sadly the actual bar bit isn't open at the meeting. Wait for the announcement and all should become clear ;-) -- MJR

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Every Sperm is Sacred: Misc thread mark 2
by David Freeman 07 Jun '01

07 Jun '01

OK first of yes I am listening to Montey pythons CD Montey Python Sings. 0) does anyone out there use LaTeX in anger? Thats LaTeX the typesetting language not LaTeX in anger the band Adam decided it was last night :o) 1) Dates for the BBQ, suggestions are 26/8/01 or 2/9/01, the latter is the day after Jo's birthday and two days after mine. I may be able to get a garden in Ipswich to use, but a better venue would be prefered. Perhaps we could persuade Jen to bring Horace X along to provide Music :o) 2) Contrary to what may seam I do know Coax and have used it. 3) As for the geek test, you guys do know what a geek is don't you? geek: Carnival performer who bites the heads off chickens. perhaps nerd would be more appropriate nerd: Person of above average intelligence with little in the way of socail skills and the art of small talk. 4) Would people like a demo of 802.11b i.e. wireless lan equipment at the next meet? 5) Are there any SQL experts out there who would mind helping me with some college work? 6) NOOO question six The concludes the reading of the rules bruce. oops sorry must stop typing what I am singing :o) Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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don't panic...
by Neill Newman 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

below is a conversation I just had with a friend.. /some/ people might find this interesting. It certainly fooled me ;).. (btw, this was a production web server!)... Neill > > > > > > Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> on 06/06/2001 16:50:38 > > > > Subject: wrapping uptimes ?? > > > > okies, I've experienced something weird... > > > > just checked my web server, was up for just under 500 days a few weeks > > ago, checked today, uptime = 9 days "oh no I've been hacked" I > > thought... I looked all through the logs, nothing is strange, no > > discontigious log entries (although it seems), no reboot messages in the > > logs.. I realise that this could be the work of a clever hacker, but the > > file modificatin times on /etc/passwd and the like are months old... > > > > it looks as if the machine hasn't been rebooted, but uptime says that it > > was rebooted 9 days ago ?? > > is it possible that I've experienced a magic uptime wrap ?? please tell > > me so, I don't fancy rebuilding this box ;)... > > > > Sz > > > > > Linux messures uptime in hundredth of a second in a 32bit interger. > > 2^32 = 4,294,967,296 > 86,400 seconds in one day = 8,640,000 hundredths of a secon > Therefore, 4,294,967,296 / 8,640,000 = 497.1 days > > You have just encountered the end of the uptime interger!! > > Andi > > p.s. The shell may confused on file dates et cetera -- Open Source Specialists http://www.entora.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0)701 0723686 Fax: +44 (0)870 3214368

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RE: [Alug] Re: A Couple of responses in one :
by Earl Brannigan 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

On 06 June 2001 10:44, Neill Newman [SMTP:neill@entora.co.uk] wrote: > > yes, a friend uses cobalt and he hates them with a passion, are these > the old non intel ones ?? or the newer i386 ones ? Its a 386 Raq4 Actually a good machine in general. I beleive the OS is based on Red-Hat 6.2 from what I can tell. RPM is installed but only for addit stuff. Patches etc must be via the pkg program. I haven't used it directly, there is a page in the admin interface from where you can install via an ftp URL. This is a bit of a pain because I have to run the Admin Interface via SSL which slows things a little. I'll have a mooch around the scripts and see what is actually happening and try to get you some better detail. > > > Actually I fully agree with you. I have an little script which daily checks > > the update site. (though I only have it advising me if there is a change, I > > haven't worked out how to get the updates automatically by script...if > > anyone has played with a cobalt you'll know that there is only one route > > for applying patches. > > I have to admit, I haven't pulled apart a cobalt, from what I can gleam > from their website they are running some form of redhat, is this right > ?? if so it will be very easy to intergrate auto updating into your > scripts, if it dosen't use rpms and you can point me towards the package > management docs I can soon convert any script to do what you want... I'm > in the process of converting the scripts to use the pkg program in > solaris. > > be warned when doing this though, I usually setup a seperate test > machine which the updates get applied to first (and tested!)... don't > just update directly from the update site.. this is considered a bad > thing (tm).... (remember tcp_wrappers!)... > > > If you're a bit of a wiz with scripts though I'd be glad to get some info > > off you. > > sure no probs... let me know what's on ya mind ;) Oh lots.... Will talk some more at the next meet. > > > Cheers > > Earl > > Cheers > Neill > > > -- > Open Source Specialists http://www.entora.co.uk/ > Tel: +44 (0)701 0723686 Fax: +44 (0)870 3214368

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Deadrat name config
by David Freeman 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

Quick question: How do I configure the DNS on a deadrat box? The syntax seams different from what I'm used to. Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: A Couple of responses in one :
by Earl Brannigan 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

> Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:40:45 +0100 > From: Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> > Organization: Entora Ltd > To: "'alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk'" <alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one : > > Earl Brannigan wrote: > > > > MJR Wrote : > > > I'd certainly still be interested. It would also be nice to be on the > > > sending end of one of these attacks for a change...! > > > > For a change!?!?!......been on the receiving end then? > > I have. > > Recently had to completely rebuild a webserver because it had been rooted, > > trojaned, backdoored etc. There was no way to undo the mess that had been > > caused. > > I beleieve it was hacked via a bind overflow. > > aarrgghhh how many times.. apply the updates and this is less likely to > happen..(not impossible mind you) > If you want I can do a 10 minute demo at the barbeque on how to make a > machine install updates automatically if it will encourage people to do > this... I currently have 30 or so machines doing automatic updates, and > I have to do about 5 minutes a week to make it work smoothly, all it > took was a little time upfront... > > I'm sure Earl will now verify, doing 5 minutes admin a week is worth it > when compared to a machine rebuild... especially when it is a production > machine.... Argggggggh to you too ! ;o) The Machine in question is a cobalt and unfortunately they're slightly later than most with updates. Actually I fully agree with you. I have an little script which daily checks the update site. (though I only have it advising me if there is a change, I haven't worked out how to get the updates automatically by script...if anyone has played with a cobalt you'll know that there is only one route for applying patches. If you're a bit of a wiz with scripts though I'd be glad to get some info off you. Cheers Earl

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > does Debian (apt) check for changes before it upgrades ?? Yes, and it offers you choices including replace, keep and diff. > download the ISO's, insert CD, and select upgrade ;)... there have been Is there any "smarter" way than downloading ISOs? I hate doing that as it ties a machine up for hours by saturating its network connection. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Every Sperm is Sacred: Misc thread mark 2
by Earl Brannigan 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

Hi David >David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> wrote : > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:48:03 -0700 (PDT) > From: > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: [Alug] Every Sperm is Sacred: Misc thread mark 2 > > OK first of yes I am listening to Montey pythons CD Montey Python > Sings. Enjoy... > > 5) Are there any SQL experts out there who would mind helping me with > some college work? Shoot. Cheers Earl

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > That's all well and good, but what do you do when the vendor's > > updates > > break core functionality required by your users? One thing Debian [...] > So true. I have a simple technique. MASSIVE firewall and a > discontinuous network connection. simple it works. I can't get local admins to agree to that, as it involves doing it at the network rack because the machines need to talk 100Mbps to each other. Sad, but true. Maybe after the next hack... -- MJR

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Re: Red hair and black leather: Re: [Alug] Every Sperm is Sacred: Misc thread mark 2
by MJ Ray 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > > 0) does anyone out there use LaTeX in anger? > How would I get my name to show up in the header? Look at the fancyhdr package. More options than you'll ever want! Suitable for a university thesis! Safe for children! Non-toxic! Sorry, that's from the "Invisible Jim" box again... -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Every Sperm is Sacred: Misc thread mark 2
by MJ Ray 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

In the spirit of the thread, I shall only answer even numbers. David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > 0) does anyone out there use LaTeX in anger? Yes. Often furious. > 2) Contrary to what may seam I do know Coax and have used it. #bdsm > 4) Would people like a demo of 802.11b i.e. wireless lan equipment at > the next meet? Yes. > 6) NOOO question six Yes there is. See other thread. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG meeting 17 June
by MJ Ray 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > lpr, lprng, pdq, CUPS, ... ? > er what? [...] > I want to set it up a simply as possible. Many different print systems. We can outline them on the day, but remember "simple" is in the eye of the beholder... -- MJR

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Ref Meeting
by Danny Thorp 06 Jun '01

06 Jun '01

Where and what is The Hive? -- Best Regards Danny

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Firewall testing
by Adam Bower 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

Hi all, I just got around to updating my firewall to use IPtables and was wondering how could I check that I havn't left any big hole in it? I know about online port-scanners but how do I know if they are reliable? (indeed you can ssh to my machine and http from the outside world but the online ones I just tried seemed to ignore this little fact) I short does anyone know a good online portscanner or is anyone willing to run NMAP or nessus against me? Thanks Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > aarrgghhh how many times.. apply the updates and this is less likely to > happen..(not impossible mind you) That's all well and good, but what do you do when the vendor's updates break core functionality required by your users? One thing Debian *still* has my respect for is that its "stable" really is, while still having security updates. > If you want I can do a 10 minute demo at the barbeque on how to make a > machine install updates automatically if it will encourage people to do > this... I currently have 30 or so machines doing automatic updates, and > I have to do about 5 minutes a week to make it work smoothly, all it > took was a little time upfront... This would be good, although "apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade" variations are 5 minutes up front and then just looking over the output of the cron job... Seeing as this is pretty much a "misc" thread: I have discovered a RedHat 6.1 machine under my control. How do I upgrade it to 7.1? If it's a nuke and start again, I'll use Debian instead, as time is short, but as time is short, I'm quite happy to leave it as RedHat if there's an upgrade path. -- MJR

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RE: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by Earl Brannigan 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

On 05 June 2001 15:37, MJ Ray [SMTP:markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk] wrote: > > [...] (SNMP walk Anyone ?). > > Yep, that one scared me when I saw how talkative our machines were. > Silly Compaq Unix enables no end of crap services by default. > Last year I spent 6 months writing an extensible SNMP agent for a call centre software suite. Wasn't fun and certainly wasn't easy. However about 4 weeks after it went live some bright spark noticed it was now possible to get a full picture of the network and its nodes, names and all sorts of other stuff (because of the newly functioning MS SNMP services) across the internet by issuing an SNMP Walk against the public MIB on the firewall's IP (which had been configured for SNMP traffic due to this new agent reporting to the sysadmin remotely!) NB Anyone who hasn't a clue what I'm talking about try the following : 1) if you can, get the MS platform SDK and install the snmptool component. (there are tons of free SNMP tools about on the net if you can't get this... a quick lycos search should get you some) 2) Ensure you have the SNMP Service active (WIN NT... dunno about other flavours though I know you can have SNMP installed) 3) try the following command (other tools should be very similar in usage) snmptool walk 127.0.0.1 public 1 Here is the output from my work machine : -----SNIP----- SnmpTool - Simple Network Management Protocol Tool for Win32 Performing branch walk starting at OID 1.3.6.1.2.1.1 Name: system.sysDescr.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.1.0 Type: OCTET STRING Length: 135 Value: Hardware: x86 Family 6 Model 5 Stepping 2 AT/AT COMPATIBLE - Software: Windows NT Version 4.0 (Build Number: 1381 Uniprocessor Free ) Name: system.sysObjectID.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.2.0 Type: OBJECT IDENTIFIER Length: 12 Value: 1.3.6.1.4.1.311.1.1.3.1.1 Name: system.sysUpTime.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.3.0 Type: TimeTicks Value: 6914 Name: system.sysContact.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.4.0 Type: OCTET STRING Length: 14 Value: Earl Brannigan Name: system.sysName.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.5.0 Type: OCTET STRING Length: 6 Value: APOLLO Name: system.sysLocation.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.6.0 Type: OCTET STRING Length: 13 Value: In the Window Name: system.sysServices.0 OID: 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.7.0 Type: INTEGER Value: 79 End of MIB branch -----SNIP----- Try the following command ... very interesting if you are connected to a network .... snmptool walk 127.0.0.1 public .1.3 (note the point in front of the 1 - important) For my machine I can see the shared drives, mapped network drives, ethernet adapters, the names/ip addresses of every other machine on my subnet......and all with little effort. It doesn't take einstein to figure out how useful some of this info is to the potential hacker.... BTW, try this against a few web servers when connected to the net....you could be intrigued. > > I will also bring along some good info in pdf/html/text format for further > > reading for anyone who is interested. > > We could upload this to the web site on the day, too? Ha! what a fabulous idea... I'll get it all onto one disk and its all yours .....;o) Good excuse to organise it all anyway. > > -- > MJR

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AUI v BNC ports
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

'Lo all. Does anyone know how to persuade eth0 to use BNC rather than AUI? (I hope I have the correct terminology here). System is debian, card is this bugger of a thing, the 3c509. Jenny.

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Re: [Alug] ALUG meeting 17 June
by MJ Ray 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > I will be bringing my new printer so we can try to configure it? lpr, lprng, pdq, CUPS, ... ? What is it, by the way? -- MJR

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RE: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by Earl Brannigan 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

MJR Wrote : > I'd certainly still be interested. It would also be nice to be on the > sending end of one of these attacks for a change...! For a change!?!?!......been on the receiving end then? I have. Recently had to completely rebuild a webserver because it had been rooted, trojaned, backdoored etc. There was no way to undo the mess that had been caused. I beleieve it was hacked via a bind overflow. > I've played with toy exploits (sending bad data to web servers to make them die, etc), > but not buffer overflows. some of the 'toy' exploits can be very useful. Sending 'apparent' junk in the post data for a .jsp for example can yield excellent results on some badly patched setups. But I have to say, buffer overflows are the most phun! (instant gratification....) > > -- > MJR OK, here's the idea, I have some bad builds of programs (anyone remember wu_ftp's vulnerability, I think I've also got some others - DNS Bind for example) so I'm happy to set my machine up as a dodgy ftp / DNS / telnet server and then gain root on it from someone else's machine. I will also install a backdoor or 2 to show how I would be able to get back in later. Also a quick overview of the ways you can gain system info to enable you to plan an attack. People are often suprised when they see how much system info they give away for free to anyone who knows where to look (SNMP walk Anyone ?). Basically I'll set my machine up as a pretty badly secured/patched box with useless services and stuff then show you how to crack it. I will also bring along some good info in pdf/html/text format for further reading for anyone who is interested. This will probably be the starting point for anyone wanting to get their own box from such condition to a hardened setup. Finally (if I have time) a little bit of a Snort overview (thats Intrusion Detection not illegal pastimes). I'm not going to touch DOS attacks or that sort of thing because most home users would never be the victim of one (although if your machine get's hacked you could well end up as an unwitting accomplice / launch pad for a future DDOS......) Cheers all See you soon. PS (Aside) some of you may remember my post from ages ago asking about development IDEs for Linux. Thanks for the responses. Since then I have used RHIDE extensively (I love it. It's a marvellous trip down memory lane as anyone who knew and loved the Borland Turbo C++ 3.x series will attest) For the past 12 weeks though I've been using Anjuta which can be found on this month's Linux Format CD, although the source download from sourceforge is small enough.( http://anjuta.sourceforge.net interestingly enough) I recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone wanting a nice IDE for C/C++ development on Linux - give it a shot......only at version 0.1.5 but it is excellent. Support it! Still buggy...that's where we come in, find them bugs and report em. (oh! ... use it as well....it does work very well afterall) You could be compiling your own buffer overflows within hours! (Just keep em away from my webservers!!)

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

Earl Brannigan <earl.brannigan(a)lindenhouse.co.uk> writes: > For a change!?!?!......been on the receiving end then? [...] Oh yeah. Universities are not nice places to be: no network-level security and fairly fast connections which are attractive launch pads for DDoS attacks. > But I have to say, buffer overflows are the most phun! (instant > gratification....) That reminds me why I program in lisp so much ;-) > [...] (SNMP walk Anyone ?). Yep, that one scared me when I saw how talkative our machines were. Silly Compaq Unix enables no end of crap services by default. > I will also bring along some good info in pdf/html/text format for further > reading for anyone who is interested. We could upload this to the web site on the day, too? -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] AUI v BNC ports
by Andrew.Chandler＠ft.com 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

some *very* old cards have a jumper on the board to select the right interface, but as Mister Newman says there will be a utility to change the setting. Try popping over to www.3com.co.uk Andi Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> on 05/06/2001 14:38:22 To: Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk (bcc: Andrew Chandler/PSD/LONDON/FTI) Subject: Re: [Alug] AUI v BNC ports Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com wrote: > > 'Lo all. > Does anyone know how to persuade eth0 to use BNC rather than AUI? (I hope I > have the correct terminology here). > System is debian, card is this bugger of a thing, the 3c509. older cards had a dos utility program to 'switch' which interface they used, nowadays they do it automatically.. I could be wrong here, but there is a rpm on rufus (rpm archive, rufus.w3.org cool place check it out!) called 3c50x which /might/ do what you want... I've never used it myself so I don't claim anything ;).. hth Neill -- Open Source Specialists http://www.entora.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0)701 0723686 Fax: +44 (0)870 3214368 _______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! ********************************************************************* * Please visit the web site of the Financial Times at: * * http://www.ft.com * * * * For UK personal finance, please visit http://www.ftyourmoney.com * * * * This E-Mail is intended for the use of the addressee only and may * * contain confidential information. If you are not the intended * * recipient, you are hereby notified that any use or dissemination * * of this communication is strictly prohibited. * * If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us * * immediately then delete this E-Mail. * * * * * postmaster(a)ft.com * *********************************************************************

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Mr simms doesn't like us Re: Cow: was Sheep: was something else
by David Freeman 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

As you didn't send this to the list I have cc'd it there. --- Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com wrote: > > BBQ sounds good to me. vote number 4 > I'm a september virgo though. Yes but I think we have a couple of members who will be leaving in septemeber. So August is a better bet. > Any talks sound good to me; ooze knowledge in through my pores by > osmosis > if i bombard it enough ;) Contradicts most of what I have learnt on the learning process :o) Security is an advanced topic but well worth learning. Get the Book "Hacking Exposed" and also read "the cuckoos Egg" which I beleive you now have. > David: Pink Floyd? Yes. > Re.17th June - if I bring a computer is it possible to network using > co-ax? Please, can some one tell me what this coax stuff is? I think it could be possible for me to bring a coaz enabled hub. Remeind me nearer the time tho. Thanks D > Jen. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] Mr simms doesn't like us Re: Cow: was Sheep: was something else
by MJ Ray 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > As you didn't send this to the list I have cc'd it there. As a general point, ask permission *before* you do this unless you're *very* sure it was an error. Quoting private correspondence in public is rather rude. (I'll certainly be after you with the chainsaw if you do it to me.) Reply to all if you want the list included, remember. > vote number 4 5. > Security is an advanced topic but well worth learning. Get the Book > "Hacking Exposed" and also read "the cuckoos Egg" which I beleive you > now have. The sequel, "Silicon Snake Oil", is also worth reading, although it's not security-related. If anyone wants a copy, I think I have a surplus one, so make me a reasonable offer off-list ;-) > Please, can some one tell me what this coax stuff is? Not UTP, the other stuff. It's what is usually used at UEA, sadly. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by Andrew.Chandler＠ft.com 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

<AOLTIMEWARNER> Me Too!!! </> I'm in the process of putting together a security team, so I'm sure a discussion allong these lines would be useful. Bing "Ashley T. Howes Ph.D." <ashley(a)turton.com> on 05/06/2001 12:58:31 To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Andrew Chandler/PSD/LONDON/FTI) Subject: Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one : I would also be interested in such a demonstration. Ashley Dr Ashley T. Howes Ph.D. ashley(a)turton.com Internet Developer http://www.turton.com Turton Creative Marketing Solutions 23-27 St. Andrews Street, Norwich, Norfolk, NR2 4TP, UK Tel:+44 (0)1603 766888 Fax:+44 (0)1603 767070 >Earl Brannigan <earl.brannigan(a)lindenhouse.co.uk> writes: > >> I was planning to do a little security overview thingy last time but >> unfortunately couldn't make the meet, >> would this still be of value to anyone ? >> I can bring along some goodies (nessus, nmap and the like and show you how >> to use them. I could also demonstrate a buffer overflow and that sort of >> thing...if anyone's interested...) > _______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! ********************************************************************* * Please visit the web site of the Financial Times at: * * http://www.ft.com * * * * For UK personal finance, please visit http://www.ftyourmoney.com * * * * This E-Mail is intended for the use of the addressee only and may * * contain confidential information. If you are not the intended * * recipient, you are hereby notified that any use or dissemination * * of this communication is strictly prohibited. * * If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us * * immediately then delete this E-Mail. * * * * * postmaster(a)ft.com * *********************************************************************

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Re: [Alug] A Couple of responses in one :
by MJ Ray 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

Earl Brannigan <earl.brannigan(a)lindenhouse.co.uk> writes: > I was planning to do a little security overview thingy last time but > unfortunately couldn't make the meet, > would this still be of value to anyone ? > I can bring along some goodies (nessus, nmap and the like and show you how > to use them. I could also demonstrate a buffer overflow and that sort of > thing...if anyone's interested...) I'd certainly still be interested. It would also be nice to be on the sending end of one of these attacks for a change...! I've played with toy exploits (sending bad data to web servers to make them die, etc), but not buffer overflows. -- MJR

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A Couple of responses in one :
by Earl Brannigan 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

Hi all, > From: MJ Ray <mjr(a)stats.mth.uea.ac.uk> > Date: 04 Jun 2001 13:26:20 +0100 > Subject: [Alug] ALUG meeting 17 June > > Hi all, > > The Hive has been booked for the afternoon of 17 June. Sadly the 10 > June is taken up by a ball. Is this a reasonable date to aim for? > It's right on the end of term, so I'd like to get publicity out this > week. Anyone volunteering to "do stuff" at this meeting? > > MJR Looks like a pretty good date to me. I was planning to do a little security overview thingy last time but unfortunately couldn't make the meet, would this still be of value to anyone ? I can bring along some goodies (nessus, nmap and the like and show you how to use them. I could also demonstrate a buffer overflow and that sort of thing...if anyone's interested...) > Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:01:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: [Alug] California dreaming > > ok so the subject may confuse you but. > > Before christmas someone mentioned that they had apool and large garden > and were willing to host a ALUG meet. But even if we couldn't use this > venue. How do people feel about the idea of having an ALUG BBQ or > similiar? We could perhaps use the (a) sylham as they have a bar > etc...? > > What do people think? > Now the pool sounds great!, and I think an ALUG BBQ would be a good thing..... > August would seam like a good time (ab normal distribution of birthdays > amoungst ALUG members in this time) > Not mine however ... > Thanks > > D > > PS and if anyone is trying to work out why this subject, its the song I > am listening two as I right > on such a winter's day ? What a way to waste a day..... I was going to entitle this post after what I'm listening to at the moment but " 'scuse me while I kiss the sky" would probably have set people worrying rather than guessing. Perhaps. Cheers Earl

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California dreaming
by David Freeman 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

ok so the subject may confuse you but. Before christmas someone mentioned that they had apool and large garden and were willing to host a ALUG meet. But even if we couldn't use this venue. How do people feel about the idea of having an ALUG BBQ or similiar? We could perhaps use the (a) sylham as they have a bar etc...? What do people think? August would seam like a good time (ab normal distribution of birthdays amoungst ALUG members in this time) Thanks D PS and if anyone is trying to work out why this subject, its the song I am listening two as I right __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] Beginner Reading List
by MJ Ray 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

Adam Bower <abower(a)zeus.com> writes: [...] > I know some of the Introduction sections are a bit Noddy if you are > more experienced but they really don't help a complete newbie Isn't that what the NHFs et al are for? And magazine articles? [...] > Hmmm, two of those books probably won't help people like Jen *that* > much! No, we drifted :-) But as long as you've got the O'Reilly debian book and access to someone else's bookmarks ( http://www.towers.org.uk/links/root_software.html might be useful to some of the people some of the time), you're on your way. Is system administration ever going to be *that* easy, though? At least once the hard work is done, you can relax as a normal user. -- MJR

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ALUG meeting 17 June
by MJ Ray 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

Hi all, The Hive has been booked for the afternoon of 17 June. Sadly the 10 June is taken up by a ball. Is this a reasonable date to aim for? It's right on the end of term, so I'd like to get publicity out this week. Anyone volunteering to "do stuff" at this meeting? MJR

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Weekly IRC meeting reminder
by Adam Bower 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

This is the automated ALUG irc meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an irc meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.openprojects.net in the #alug channel, you can take a look at www.openprojects.net to get more info on the openprojects network. Popular irc clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and ircII on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.bitchx.com http://www.xchat.org http://freshmeat.net http://www.epicsol.org/ (for Brett!) Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Help for a new Newbie - Please
by Mark Myatt 03 Jun '01

03 Jun '01

I have recently installed Linux-Mandrake 7.2 and am enjoyng it. However when I log off there appears a "Failed Message" shortly before "Power Down". It says "Saving mixer settings aumix: error opening mixer [failed]" Is this important ? what should I do about it ? I shall be glad to hear from anyone who can tel me what this is all about. Mark Myatt

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lxml
by oms101＠freeuk.com 31 May '01

31 May '01

I have just writern a simple C++ XML processing app which I described for source forge as lxml is a simple XML processing filter, tags can be scripted to launch any application which will receive the XML between triggering tags this is piped to stdin of the launched applications, stdout is redirected by lxml to replace the triggering tags. unfortunately they said they would not host it (insufficient information) some further information is presented here This application will be accompanied with two further applications which together should provide session management for CGI based web application. running in an XML frame work. does any one have a location I can upload this to permanently, I am going to release it under the MIT style licence, ie people and compnays are free to use it as they like. Cheers Owen Synge Date: 30-May-01 Time: 20:23:15

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Re: [Alug] Beginner Reading List
by MJ Ray 31 May '01

31 May '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Please, it wasn't a flame, it was just a small rant aimed at noone in > particular, I was only Identify a weekness in the documentation of > Linux. What the hell are the "Introduction" sections for, if not to explain? They usually lay down the basic concepts in really easy language. In fact, it irritates me by being a bit too "Noddy" sometimes. How To Design Programs from PLT Rice (IIRC) is a quite good intro to programming. I'm biased. Other than that, I have a Babani book on C (for when I have to hack and I can't tell my pointer from my elbow) and an old Linux book which came with my second distribution (right about when I realised that CDs in books are really out of date when you buy them). -- MJR

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BOOKS
by David Freeman 30 May '01

30 May '01

People, Does anyone want any books from O'reilly, I need to give them a decent size order. The cost will be 25% off list price. Please please, make this work. Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] CASE Tools
by MJ Ray 29 May '01

29 May '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Can anyone recommend any CASE[1] tools for use on linux? Define "CASE tools". There are as many as there are definitions... -- MJR

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O'Reilly Books
by David Freeman 29 May '01

29 May '01

All, I have the forms to open an account with O'Reilly. We will get 25% discount. So if you email me details of what books you want, and the price in DOLLARS, I will compile the order. I hope to have them all for the next meet. Also I will only except orders from people on the mailing list or who have a post in the archive. Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Beginner Reading List
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 29 May '01

29 May '01

Go on then! After last night's flame, I thought you could all recommend me good books to read to tell me how basic things work. I'll then compile a little list and we could have it on the homepage for other beginners to consult. Next thing you know I'll run out of questions to ask and will be completely brilliant. I've got O'Reilly Running Linux. Any others? (Writing Linux Devices Drivers sounds well heavy stuff, David, and may well go above a newbie's head?) Jen.

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IRC Log for 28/Apr/2001
by Gareth Watts 28 May '01

28 May '01

For those that missed it, there's a log of tonights online meeting up at: http://omnipotent.net/alug/alug-010528.txt Gareth

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test
by oms101＠freeuk.com 28 May '01

28 May '01

Date: 26-May-01 Time: 14:07:23

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