[cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?

cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li
Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:28:30 -0400


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Fair point.

The TWiki CoreTeam's fruitless obsession about rolling their own code =
rather
than using known good
http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CpanPerlModulesRequirement is =
still
one of my most fundamental disagreements about that project. (Not least
because every time they add a feature they then need to maintain that
feature - ceteris paribus this slows growth).

Re: Template Toolkit, I was under the impression that Kwiki now used =
this.
http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi?KwikiTemplateToolkit=20

WRT: Being easy to install: this is one of the most contentious issues =
about
TWIki  - upgrades (when they happen, the last one took 15 months to be
released) are entirely manual and incredibly painful, to the extent that
many complain and even some of the CoreTeam have admitted they =
personally
run versions of code that are two releases (i.e. 2.5 years) old in
production. Ease of install is critical, mind: if people can't install =
it
they can't use it and this ripples down to the development process. =
Witness
http://template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2003-May/004648.html. =
Also:
http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KwikiWiki =20

One (now-ex) TWikiContributor, Michael Sparks, wrote an installer that
promised to simplified issues but TWiki's "leadership" (I use that term
cautiously) proved through to both him and I through their sequence of
inaction (bottleneck at the top) that any illusions of autonomy were
precisely that - an illusion.

I've now pretty much given up on TWiki - see
http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/MartinCleaver for my future
intentions. I've always felt that TWiki has not kept up with the times =
(for
example, an embeddable model could make use of a
http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ApplicationServer or provide =
service
through P*Nuke). I am seeking a new right "home" and believe that =
CGI::Wiki
is the most promising prospect.

Peter Masiar may be able to add something about his observations in the
increase of pace of Kwiki.

Regards,
    Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li [mailto:cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li] =
On
Behalf Of Jonathan Swartz
Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 7:34 AM
To: cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li
Subject: Re: [cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?

=20

The philosophies of the project are starkly different in at least one =
way.
Kwiki is fanatical about remaining easy to install, to the point of =
using no
CPAN modules - they rolled their own template toolkit, for pete's sake.
CGI::Wiki obviously depends on external modules wherever it is useful. I
wonder if this (beyond any other differences) could be reconciled.

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Martin@Cleaver.org=20

To: cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li=20

Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:34 PM

Subject: [cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?

=20

Hi Kake,

More questions. has anyone proposed, and what's the general feeling =
about,
merging the efforts of CGI::Wiki and Kwiki? I question the need for
independent efforts and wonder whether a joint community would have =
better
economies of scale.

Cheers,=20

    Martin

--

Martin@Cleaver.org=20
Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman
Cell:+1 416 832 7759 Y!:mrjcleaver ICQ:55418201=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Fair point.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The TWiki CoreTeam&#8217;s =
fruitless obsession
about rolling their own code rather than using known good <a
href=3D"http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CpanPerlModulesRequiremen=
t">http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CpanPerlModulesRequirement</a>=

is still one of my most fundamental disagreements about that project. =
(Not
least because every time they add a feature they then need to maintain =
that
feature &#8211; ceteris paribus this slows growth).</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Re: Template Toolkit, I was under =
the
impression that Kwiki now used this. <a
href=3D"http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi?KwikiTemplateToolkit">http://www.k=
wiki.org/index.cgi?KwikiTemplateToolkit</a>
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>WRT: Being easy to install: this is =
one of
the most contentious issues about TWIki &nbsp;- upgrades (when they =
happen, the
last one took 15 months to be released) are entirely manual and =
incredibly painful,
to the extent that many complain and even some of the CoreTeam have =
admitted
they personally run versions of code that are two releases (i.e. 2.5 =
years) old
in production. Ease of install is critical, mind: if people can&#8217;t =
install
it they can&#8217;t use it and this ripples down to the development =
process. Witness
<a =
href=3D"http://template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2003-May/004648.h=
tml">http://template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2003-May/004648.html=
</a>.
Also: <a =
href=3D"http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KwikiWiki">http://www.twi=
ki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KwikiWiki</a>
&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One (now-ex) TWikiContributor, =
Michael
Sparks, wrote an installer that promised to simplified issues but =
TWiki&#8217;s
&#8220;leadership&#8221; (I use that term cautiously) proved through to =
both him
and I through their sequence of inaction (bottleneck at the top) that =
any
illusions of autonomy were precisely that &#8211; an =
illusion.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;ve now pretty much given up =
on TWiki
&#8211; see <a =
href=3D"http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/MartinCleaver">http://www.=
twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/MartinCleaver</a>
for my future intentions. I&#8217;ve always felt that TWiki has not kept =
up
with the times (for example, an embeddable model could make use of a <a
href=3D"http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ApplicationServer">http:/=
/www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ApplicationServer</a>
or provide service through P*Nuke). I am seeking a new right =
&#8220;home&#8221;
and believe that CGI::Wiki is the most promising =
prospect.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Peter Masiar may be able to add =
something
about his observations in the increase of pace of =
Kwiki.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Martin</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'>-----Origi=
nal
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li
[mailto:cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Jonathan Swartz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font =
color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'>Sunday,
 14 September 2003</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> </span></font><font
 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'>7:34
 AM</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: =
[cgi-wiki-dev]
Convergence with Kwiki?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#ffffcc" =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext'>The philosophies of the project are starkly different =
in at
least one way. Kwiki is fanatical about remaining easy to install, to =
the point
of using no CPAN modules -&nbsp;they rolled their own template toolkit, =
for
pete's sake. CGI::Wiki obviously depends on external modules wherever it =
is
useful. I wonder if this (beyond any other differences) could be =
reconciled.</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:
#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font><=
/b><font
color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'> <a
href=3D"mailto:Martin@Cleaver.org" =
title=3D"Martin@Cleaver.org">Martin@Cleaver.org</a>
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'> <a
href=3D"mailto:cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li" =
title=3D"cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li">cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li</a>
</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'> =
</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'>Saturday,
 September 13, 2003</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'> </span></font><font
 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'>9:34
 PM</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'> =
[cgi-wiki-dev]
Convergence with Kwiki?</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font
size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hi Kake,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>More questions&#8230; has anyone
proposed, and what&#8217;s the general feeling about, merging the =
efforts of
CGI::Wiki and Kwiki? I question the need for independent efforts and =
wonder
whether a joint community would have better economies of =
scale.</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:75.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Cheers, </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:75.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Martin</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:75.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3D"#400000"
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#400000'>--</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:75.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3D"#400000"
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:#400000'><a
href=3D"mailto:Martin@Cleaver.org">Martin@Cleaver.org</a> <br>
</span></font><font color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#400000'>Melbourne</span></font><font
 color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#400000'> =
</span></font><font
  color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#400000'>Business</span></font><font
 color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#400000'> =
</span></font><font
  color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#400000'>School</span></font><font
color=3D"#400000"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:#400000'> FT 2004 =
MBA Exchange
Participant to Rotman<br>
Cell:+1 416 832 7759&nbsp;Y!:mrjcleaver ICQ:55418201 </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig style=3D'margin-left:108.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

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