--- Laurie Brown <laurie@brownowl.com> wrote:
David Freeman wrote:
All,
My web site has now gone alpha. So could I ask for people to take a look and let me know of any bugs, speiling misstakes etc... Also constructive criticism would be nice.
Before I get flamed for daring to speak the unspeakable, to whit: grammar and spelling *are* important, and that the results of trendy education methods and piss-poor teaching are a serious disservice to our young people, note:
I agree completely and admit that my english is crap. As for the education system, just don't get me started.
IMO, written English is no more difficult to master than any programming langauge, except that one doesn't need to compile English... Clear communication is no less important, however, and going public on a web site *requires* that it be at least close to correct. The sole reason so many youngsters can't spell or write, is down to the education system and crappy teachers, abetted by the acceptance of poor standards by the world at large. I wonder, for instance, how so many people get through tertiary education when they can't write to save their lives (we all know examples).
Again, I agree to the point I would say that a programming lnaguages and human lnaguages are very much the same sort of things but on different levels. Each has the sma e general constructs but under different terms, compare syntax and Grammer. Then add in correct spelling and a wide vocabulary, we have language. The problem comes from so much redundency which we add into the interpretation and thus make poor compilers. Take for example. Chocolate me need. me need chocolate I require a cocoa based product with added milk and sucrose sumplement. as you can see english has a lot of syntatic sugar, which isn't required for understanding to be had, this si where natural language processing comes in. Each sentence has verbs, adjectives etc... and the processor just processes the sentence for such words and treats them as objects. foe example the sentence "chocolcate me need" has the objects of me and chololate with the relation ship of "need" thrown in as "me" needing it. The problem we have is in our compilers or lexical analysis. We will parse the sentence a number of times in attempts to make sense of it, if after an arbitary number of passes we decide it doesn't make sense we barf an error. Where Computer languages come into there own is that the language is very strict in the constructs which are allowed and the lexical analysis is somewhat poor (compared to a human). As such Programmers and hackers tend to command a better than average use of their native language through this need for above average levels of accuracy. So to summerise, language has too much syntatic sugar which allows for interpretation from mal formed sentences where a Parse error whould be through. but through years of use we have go lasy and our interpreters have "improved" to the point that we no longer require such sytatic sugar and can use the language in a much reduced way. To summerise, english is a robust language to sumerise the summery of the summary: people are a problem.
Anyway, David, my initial comments: the site is so full of grammatical and spelling errors that it shouldn't be considered anything near ready for release. I'd suggest that if you have a problem with spelling, grammar and syntax, you get someone who hasn't to proof-read and correct it for you before you publish.
This is what I thought which is why it is alpha not beta. It may now be apparent why I use Bascule as a nick at times. Also the purpose of sending it to the list was for it to be proof read, and I am greatfull of your input on this.
I picked up the following on a quick read-through, certainly there are some I missed. Please don't ask me to do this again!
Thank you, I will get it into a high beta stage with as many mistakes as possible removed.
First para could do with a sprinkling of commas and/or colons/semi-colons as it has too many fragmented sentences: actually, this applies throughout the site. Additionally, there is a lot of random capitalisation of words, and many words uncapitalised when they should be. I stopped picking this up after a while.
Does any one know of a good site which explains the correct use of colons, semi colons and comas? Also what exactly is meant by fragmentation, word sometimes brings it up by I never knew what that means. Thanks for the input, it is very helpful Thanks D <snip my appaling spelling>
Cheers, Laurie. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie@brownowl.com PGP key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
===== -------------------- "We all know Linux is great... it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." Linus Torvalds __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Hi, Laurie: missed your initial response, presumably due to the list problems Mark mentioned. Anyway, here's my flame ;-)
--- Laurie Brown <laurie@brownowl.com> wrote:
IMO, written English is no more difficult to master than any programming langauge, except that one doesn't need to compile English... Clear communication is no less important, however, and going public on a web site *requires* that it be at least close to correct.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Written English is a heck of a lot harder to master than programming. Most programming languages have a right and a wrong way: ie, black and white, works or doesn't. They have a very limited syntax and often there are many easily accessible books written on how to program in a given language. English, on the other hand, has too many shades of grey to make it easy to master. Syntax, grammatical rules, spelling: all these things change based not just on what country you're in but often depending on the region of a country. In English, it's very difficult to pin down 'write' and wrong, once you get beyond the basics of spelling and grammar. It becomes much more subjective and more difficult to define. I do of course agree that people should make more of an effort with their use of the language, but I'd take lucid, clear writing with errors over perfectly constructed grammatically correct pigswill any day ;-)
The sole reason so
many youngsters can't spell or write, is down to the education system and crappy teachers, abetted by the acceptance of poor standards by the world at large. I wonder, for instance, how so many people get through tertiary education when they can't write to save their lives (we all know examples).
Hmmm... again, I think it's easy to blame the education system and "trendy methods" for falling standards, but I think a portion of the blame should also be directed at the parents and society. TV doesn't encourage reading and writing; the fast food disposable lifestyles we live also prohibit attention to detail and focus on results over accuracy. Let's not forget that languages are always changing, too. The english language has been pretty much frozen over the last century thanks to the spread of both books / literacy and also the increase in recordings, both television and radio. Maybe with the advent of new technologies (email, mobile phones) the language is starting to shift again?
Anyway, David, my initial comments: the site is so full of grammatical and spelling errors that it shouldn't be considered anything near ready for release. I'd suggest that if you have a problem with spelling, grammar and syntax, you get someone who hasn't to proof-read and correct it for you before you publish.
I agree with asking for proofreaders, but I'd disagree about the readiness of the site. It's not mission-critical: let people see it, they'll soon tell you of the faults! </soapbox> Andrew. -- All views are my own, who else would want them?
Andrew Savory wrote:
Hi,
Laurie: missed your initial response, presumably due to the list problems Mark mentioned. Anyway, here's my flame ;-)
[SNIP] Naturally, I've been through this loop a million times over the years, so I won't get embroiled in it now. I've learnt that my views on grammar and written English differ a little from most other people's... however: [SNIP]
I agree with asking for proofreaders, but I'd disagree about the readiness of the site. It's not mission-critical: let people see it, they'll soon tell you of the faults!
Here's the rest of my original email, which has the errors I found. I would argue that there are too many to consider the site ready. Sorry... ---- cut here ---- [BIG SNIP]
I picked up the following on a quick read-through, certainly there are some I missed. Please don't ask me to do this again!
First para could do with a sprinkling of commas and/or colons/semi-colons as it has too many fragmented sentences: actually, this applies throughout the site. Additionally, there is a lot of random capitalisation of words, and many words uncapitalised when they should be. I stopped picking this up after a while.
"speiling misstakes" [and elementary grammar]:
Front page: "So Click" s/b "So click" "self explanitary" s/b "self-explanatory"
Welcome Page: "your probably" which s/b "you're probably" "informations" s/b "information" "My writtings" s/b "My Writing"
Diving: "sharm" s/b "Sharm" "alot" s/b "a lot" "sort" s/b "sorted" "Argonsuts" s/b "Argonauts" "scotland" s/b "Scotland" "upto" s/b " up to" "on the right" s/b "on the left" :^)
Computers: "apple" s/b "Apple" "PC's" s/b "PCs" [more than once] "i" s/b "I" "families" s/b "family's" "pentuim" s/b "Pentium" "down hill" s/b "downhill" "off the shelf" s/b "off-the-shelf" "sounds" s/b "Sounds" "howto" s/b "how to" "basic" s/b "Basic" [more than once] "work Experience" s/b "Work Experience" "BTlabs" s/b "BT Labs" "GCSE's" s/b "'O' Levels" [sorry] s/b "GCSEs" "electronics and computing " s/b "Electronics and Computing" "Learning" s/b "learning" "my self" s/b "myself" "I also during this time" s/b "During this time I also" "an use it exclusively on my home PC" s/b "and use it on my home PC exclusively" "Beir" s/b "Bier" "linux" s/b "Linux" [more than once]
Software: "thats" s/b "that's" "Its against" s/b "It's against" "fundemental" s/b "fundamental" [more than once] "dictated upon by" "dictated upon me by" "beleive" s/b "believe" "things wrong" s/b "things that are wrong" "wont" s/b "won't" "meantion" s/b "mention" "wa" s/b "was" "BTlabs" s/b "BT Labs" "stand allown as a application" s/b "stand alone as an application"
British diving: "to help QUALIFIED divers to improve their diving and be informative"
I'm not sure how your web page will help qualifed divers to be informative, so maybe you meant:
"to be informative and help QUALIFIED divers to improve their diving"
"mis use" s/b "misuse" "mines is" s/b "mine's" or "mine is" "seam" s/b "seam""alot" s/b "a lot" "put of" "put off" "afterwoulds" s/b "afterwards" "wont to by" s/b "want to buy" "wierd" s/b "weird" "don't fit" s/b "doesn't fit" "going to leek" s/b "going to leak" "angel" s/b "angle" "upto" s/b " up to" "nie" s/b "nice" "seperate" s/b "separate" "warn" s/b "worn" "BCD's" s/b "BCDs" "you head" s/b "your head" "peice" s/b "piece" [more than once] "is generally" s/b "are generally" "wieght" s/b "weight" "peopl" s/b "people" "over the top" s/b "over-the-top" "wind up" s/b "wind-up" [more than once] "cieling" s/b "ceiling" "sin't" s/b "isn't"
Trip reports: "center" s/b "centre" "allown" s/b "alone" "continueing" s/b "continuing" "greated" s/b "greeted" "Peire" s/b [?] ""Pierre" "to drunk" s/b "too drunk" "well run" s/b "well-run" "which were" s/b "who were" "to much" s/b "too much" "specail" s/b "special" "aptily" s/b "aptly" "two crowded" s/b "too crowded" "likeing" s/b "liking" "addiquate" s/b "adequate" "pritty" s/b "pretty"
Links: "its here" s/b "it's here" "everyday" s/b "every day" [more than once] "its funny" s/b "it's funny" "hilerious" s/b "hilarious"
Cheers, Laurie.
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie@brownowl.com PGP key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371 --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie@brownowl.com PGP key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
on Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:03:44AM +0100, Laurie Brown scribbled:
"speiling misstakes" [and elementary grammar]:
With the apostrophe, this certainly helped me.. http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif At first it seems a joke, but it is actually correct, afaik.
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Andrew Savory wrote:
IMO, written English is no more difficult to master than any programming langauge, except that one doesn't need to compile English... Clear communication is no less important, however, and going public on a web site *requires* that it be at least close to correct.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Written English is a heck of a lot harder to master than programming. Most programming languages have a right and a wrong way: ie, black and white, works or doesn't. They have a very limited syntax and often there are many easily accessible books written on how to program in a given language.
I disagree :-) I have seen how perl scripts can be (and are) written, I find english is far easier for me than programming. Of course I am crap at both though....
I do of course agree that people should make more of an effort with their use of the language, but I'd take lucid, clear writing with errors over perfectly constructed grammatically correct pigswill any day ;-) Me too!
Anyway I don't want to get drawn further into this debate, as I know that you will hear me start to rant about education! Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam
--- Adam Bower <abower@thebowery.co.uk> wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Andrew Savory wrote:
IMO, written English is no more difficult to master than any programming langauge, except that one doesn't need to compile English... Clear communication is no less important, however, and going public on a web site *requires* that it be at least close to correct.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Written English is a heck of a lot harder to master than programming. Most programming languages have a right and a wrong way: ie, black and white, works or doesn't. They have a very limited syntax and often there are many easily accessible books written on how to program in a given language.
I disagree :-) I have seen how perl scripts can be (and are) written, I find english is far easier for me than programming. Of course I am crap at both though....
But how long have you been using english and how loong for perl? Does german make any sense? what about french? All languages are the same, they have a syntax, and a vocabulary, we just use different terms for them in computing and spoken english. We then have things like verbs and nouns etc.. or operators, properties and objects?
I do of course agree that people should make more of an effort with their use of the language, but I'd take lucid, clear writing with errors over perfectly constructed grammatically correct pigswill any day ;-) Me too!
Anyway I don't want to get drawn further into this debate, as I know that you will hear me start to rant about education!
In for a penny if for a pound. Why are we taugh shapespear? We are taught in english to read books and we study books, but the books we are given to read are usually boring and do not appeal to people, The books we had in the library were so bad they put me off reading till I left school and read about 150 books in the first year of work! Education, and society are a big rpoblem and I would say that the lack of religion doesn't help. Having said that I think most of religion is bollocks and not as founded on fact. And can lead to kids being taught creation theory instead of darwinism! Religion originally started as a set of rules for people to follow, i.e. Tao Te Ching (I think thats how its spelt) I would recommend everyone on list reads the Tao of pooh and te of piglet. Thanks D PS I am working through your list of corrections Laurie.
Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam
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On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, David Freeman wrote:
But how long have you been using english and how loong for perl? Does german make any sense? what about french?
All languages are the same, they have a syntax, and a vocabulary, we just use different terms for them in computing and spoken english. We then have things like verbs and nouns etc.. or operators, properties and objects?
heh, it was a bit of joke that comment! just that I can read some types of code if they have comments, if not i am stuffed at the first hurdle. I have seen the nasty things you can do with perl, it seems with perl there are no rules...
Anyway I don't want to get drawn further into this debate, as I know that you will hear me start to rant about education!
In for a penny if for a pound.
Ok, well i don't have a formal education. I left school when I was 13 because it was crap. You really don't want me to make comments on education as it will descend into a flame war that i really don't want to have on this list. My thoughts on the matter would be considered by some as rather extreme. Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam
participants (5)
-
Adam Bower -
Andrew Savory -
David Freeman -
Laurie Brown -
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