Hi Folks, I'd welcome comments on the following situation. According to the Sphinx, my exchange is due to be BB enabled on 12 October -- a mere 4 days off!!!! It's a BT exchange (Brandon Creek), a BT phone line, and I'm a BT customer for the telephone service (and, currently, also for dialup acess). The only external signs of activity I've seen so far, passing by the other day, is that the radio dish on top of the pole, which used to face South towards Littleport, now faces North. So maybe something really is happening! More to the point, between me and it is some 5km of overhead cable, as things stand at the moment (they sometimes fall down, literally ... ). BT's website tells me, this morning: "Check availability - results For Telephone Number 01353676*** on Exchange BRANDON CREEK Our initial test on your line indicates that you may be able to get Broadband from BT with speeds up to 1Mb, which is up to 20 times faster than dial-up. At the moment, your telephone line is unable to support our 2Mb speed broadband package. Also, due to the length of your line, an engineer visit may be required to set up your broadband service. Your local BT telephone exchange is unable to support broadband at the moment, but it will by 12th October 2005. If you decide to place an order, a further test will be performed to confirm if your line is suitable for the speed of service you wish to order. Order Broadband from BT online and get a FREE modem saving you a £25 charge which applies if you order by phone." This raises a number of issues, in the context of the fact that, a priori, I'm not that keen to order broadband from BT anyway, for various reasons (one of which is their attitude to non-Windows users -- their basic service, for example, is apparently not even Mac-compatible!). 1. "you may be able to get Broadband from BT with speeds up to 1Mb," 2. "Also, due to the length of your line, an engineer visit may be required to set up your broadband service." 3. "If you decide to place an order, a further test will be performed to confirm if your line is suitable for the speed of service you wish to order." All of this tends to point to the possibility that it might not work without engineer intervention (if at all ... ). So the dilemma is: If I order broadband from a non-BT ISP, where would their engineer stand, being non-BT, in the event of difficulties arising from the BT part of the system (the setup in the exchange, the length and quality of the overhead cable, the final line from the pole to my house, etc. The latter, for instance, had to be renewed by a BT engineer a while ago because its covering had perished, letting the rain in to the cable. Who knows what the cable's like further back along the line ... )? Would a non-BT engineer be able to fix problems that a BT engineer could fix (which might involve fiddling with exchange setups)? If there could be snags on that front, then maybe going for non-BT might be a bad idea, though on other grounds it would be a good idea! (I'm particularly tempted by comments on some of the ISPs that have come up recently on ALUG). Another issue is the "modem/router" that BT would supply (free according to the above, though that's not an important factor). I wonder how a non-BT modem/router would work in this case. I happen to have in hand at the moment a Peak CAS4047 "High Speed 1 WAN 4LAN Broadband Router" (quoting from the box), which claims to be RJ45-connectable to a Cable/DSL modem, so this should in principle be OK provided there's a modem for it to connect to. But I wonder about the BT "modem/router". I've tested the Peak's browser accessibility (point Firefox to "http://192.168.1.254" and you can have a nice little chat with it, apparently allowing all sorts of things to be set up including routing to the internal fixed IPs of your LAN, while getting a dynamic IP for itself from the ISP, not to mention various firewalling options). So it looks good. But it would be plugging into the BT modem. Any likely problems? NB that BT assert on their website that their "modem/router" requires Windows compatibility. I'm not going to waste my time trying to find out from BT Customer Support whether that's really true, or whether you can just switch it on, plug in any DSL-compatible router, wait for it to get its IP address, and then simply carry on, independently of not using Windows. So I think the dilemma can be summed up: Would I, as a Linux user, be buggered if I got a BT installation? Would I be buggered anyway if I got another ISP to provide the service? Comments welcome! (Please remember that I'm totally new to this area of going on-line, so I'm not familiar with the bits and pieces). Best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 08-Oct-05 Time: 13:34:23 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 01:35:50PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
Would a non-BT engineer be able to fix problems that a BT engineer could fix (which might involve fiddling with exchange setups)? If there could be snags on that front, then maybe going for non-BT might be a bad idea, though on other grounds it would be a good idea!
I figure that the best way to try would be to order from another ISP, basically BT won't do anything to make your line work. If the order with the other ISP fails then you could always try and order ADSL from BT (who will do something if the line doesn't work, but will tie you in with a 12 month contract). I was stuck in a similar situation when living in Cambridge, I ordered ADSL from about 3 different isps (including BT) and every time there was a problem with my line until I ordered ADSL from Andrews & Arnold who somehow managed to get BT out with a mobile workshop the next day who then upgraded the line and supplied ADSL. I think the best way to try would be to order from your "preferred supplier" if that doesn't work then try Andrews & Arnold (who are very good and do provide Linux suppport anyhow) and if that fails try BT. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sat, 2005-10-08 at 13:35 +0100, Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote:
So the dilemma is: If I order broadband from a non-BT ISP, where would their engineer stand, being non-BT, in the event of difficulties arising from the BT part of the system (the setup in the exchange, the length and quality of the overhead cable, the final line from the pole to my house, etc. The latter, for instance, had to be renewed by a BT engineer a while ago because its covering had perished, letting the rain in to the cable. Who knows what the cable's like further back along the line ... )?
Generally it won't matter, most of the ISP's that have been discussed buy the ADSL from BT Broadband wholesale and BT will put the same amount of effort (it seems more effort in some cases) into fixing issues with those lines as they would if it was a BT Openworld or whatever account. When it comes down to differences in getting long reach issues resolved is down to how committed each ISP is to getting new customers signed up. There are options to get customers near or over the long reach threshold connected, but all of these require the ISP to forward a long reach request to BT. Even then not all exchanges are long reach capable (although I'd hope that a newly converted one was). So in sort your chances of getting a connection with a good ISP are equal to getting connected via BT (or some would say a bit higher) Also at a line length of 5km (assuming the lines are in good order) you are within the threshold for 512Kbs at least. I am at 4km and am happily sitting at 2Mbs. I think you are allowed up to about 60db attenuation before they will refuse to even try anything other than long reach services. As a general rule of thumb allow about 10db per km of cable (although it does vary depending on the state of the cable or condition and number of termination points in the loop)
Hi there,
Would a non-BT engineer be able to fix problems that a BT engineer could fix (which might involve fiddling with exchange setups)? If there could be snags on that front, then maybe going for non-BT might be a bad idea, though on other grounds it would be a good idea!
The other ISPs "lease" lines etc. from BT and the physical layer will still be maintained by BT engineers :)
(I'm particularly tempted by comments on some of the ISPs that have come up recently on ALUG).
Andrews & Arnold and Zen ADSL are both very good :)
NB that BT assert on their website that their "modem/router" requires Windows compatibility. I'm not going to waste my time trying to find out from BT Customer Support whether that's really true, or whether you can just switch it on, plug in any DSL-compatible router, wait for it to get its IP address, and then simply carry on, independently of not using Windows.
So I think the dilemma can be summed up:
Would I, as a Linux user, be buggered if I got a BT installation?
For the record, I know of at least one occasion where a friend made the mistake of mentioning he used a non-windows platform (as well as a windows laptop) to them over the phone whilst querying the fact 1. The ADSL modem they'd sent him was dead and 2. They hadn't switched his service on. They insisted all the problems were at his end, were his fault, etc. "refused to support him". It took him 3 weeks to get them to replace the ADSL equipment, by which time he'd already bought something else, and (count 'em) THREE MONTHS to admit they hadn't switched on his service, during which time, they continued to charge him, and he had to make other arrangements to keep his contracts in the meantime. They sent him some paltry goodies afterwards, but kept his cash, and left him with the experience of paying for internet cafes almost daily and/or working from friends' living-rooms in the meantime.
Would I be buggered anyway if I got another ISP to provide the service?
The general feeling among my friends on this seems to be that you should pre-empt BT's motivational problems and go through a 3rd party. It's good to have a large rich company doing the hair-tearing and having to put up with hours of pointless bickering, condescention and prevarication on your behalf (although this isn't foolproof, you'll still have to contend with them on matters of a private phone line).. I've known BT to behave in a silly manner many times once they've 'got their money'. At some point, I may bore you at great length with said, but for now, I'll say that I wouldn't touch BT with a barge-pole in terms of direct service. They seem to listen to big companies a lot more. I mean, I'd say they're probably fine if everything's working, but even then I've known them to fob people off with second-rate equipment and services because the customer doesn't know any different. As mentioned, Zen(for instance) can provide you with a cheaper, uncapped, better (in terms of actual speeds/contention attained and reliability, I'm led to believe) service, there's nothing particularly good about BTs broadband in terms of either the service, or the pricing. Also, the only phone support I've come across that's worse than BTs is AOL. I kid you not. Now BT engineers, that's a different matter. One of the best professions around, and full of guys who really know their onions when you chat to them IRL, but speak to BT over the phone, and you get a sort of poor man's Sir Humphrey Appleby affair, where the mission seems to be "avoid being helpful at all costs" Anyway, rant over. It's not non-comittal, and I've probably offended someone, but hey - I'm sure someone else will have an equal and opposite positive viewpoint and all will be well with the world. For my part, I say this. Avoid dealing directly with BT. Like the plague. Ten :) "The only thing sitting on the fence gets you is a sore backside and a 0% share of the grass" - Anonymous.
"runlevelten@gmail.com" <runlevelten@gmail.com>
The general feeling among my friends on this seems to be that you should pre-empt BT's motivational problems and go through a 3rd party. It's good to have a large rich company doing the hair-tearing and having to put up with hours of pointless bickering, condescention and prevarication on your behalf (although this isn't foolproof, you'll still have to contend with them on matters of a private phone line)..
I agree. I quit BT after Yet Another Price Increase which was dressed up as a service plan, but had to use the Information Commissioner to "motivate" BT Retail to stop sending "come back" letters. It is foolprooof: you can rent your private phone line through someone else too, like it or phonecoop. I posted about this to http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2005-1.html#btads and http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2005-2.html#nmal0829 Hope that helps, -- MJ Ray (slef), Lynn, England, retposxto cxe http://mjr.towers.org.uk/
On Saturday 08 October 2005 22:53, runlevelten@gmail.com wrote:
Andrews & Arnold and Zen ADSL are both very good :)
I second the Zen recommendation. Their support is second to none and when you start talking "Linux" to them, the person at the other end knows what you're talking about. They also send you regular e-mail updates during set up as to the status of where BT have got to in activating your line so you're never left out of the loop. I've been with them a few years now and I've had virtually no downtime. I'm signed up to their business service so I get a few advantages over the residential service, but I know for a fact that the support number is the same for both, so residential will still get the same high quality of support. You can also e-mail their support department and you will have an informative reply within 24 hours. Matt
participants (6)
-
Adam Bower -
Matt Parker -
MJ Ray -
runlevelten＠gmail.com -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk -
Wayne Stallwood