Hi Kake,
More questions. has anyone proposed, and what's the general feeling about, merging the efforts of CGI::Wiki and Kwiki? I question the need for independent efforts and wonder whether a joint community would have better economies of scale.
Cheers,
Martin
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Martin@Cleaver.org Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman Cell:+1 416 832 7759 Y!:mrjcleaver ICQ:55418201
The philosophies of the project are starkly different in at least one way. Kwiki is fanatical about remaining easy to install, to the point of using no CPAN modules - they rolled their own template toolkit, for pete's sake. CGI::Wiki obviously depends on external modules wherever it is useful. I wonder if this (beyond any other differences) could be reconciled. ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin@Cleaver.org To: cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:34 PM Subject: [cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?
Hi Kake,
More questions. has anyone proposed, and what's the general feeling about, merging the efforts of CGI::Wiki and Kwiki? I question the need for independent efforts and wonder whether a joint community would have better economies of scale.
Cheers,
Martin
--
Martin@Cleaver.org Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman Cell:+1 416 832 7759 Y!:mrjcleaver ICQ:55418201
Fair point.
The TWiki CoreTeam's fruitless obsession about rolling their own code rather than using known good http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CpanPerlModulesRequirement is still one of my most fundamental disagreements about that project. (Not least because every time they add a feature they then need to maintain that feature - ceteris paribus this slows growth).
Re: Template Toolkit, I was under the impression that Kwiki now used this. http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi?KwikiTemplateToolkit
WRT: Being easy to install: this is one of the most contentious issues about TWIki - upgrades (when they happen, the last one took 15 months to be released) are entirely manual and incredibly painful, to the extent that many complain and even some of the CoreTeam have admitted they personally run versions of code that are two releases (i.e. 2.5 years) old in production. Ease of install is critical, mind: if people can't install it they can't use it and this ripples down to the development process. Witness http://template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2003-May/004648.html. Also: http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/KwikiWiki
One (now-ex) TWikiContributor, Michael Sparks, wrote an installer that promised to simplified issues but TWiki's "leadership" (I use that term cautiously) proved through to both him and I through their sequence of inaction (bottleneck at the top) that any illusions of autonomy were precisely that - an illusion.
I've now pretty much given up on TWiki - see http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Main/MartinCleaver for my future intentions. I've always felt that TWiki has not kept up with the times (for example, an embeddable model could make use of a http://www.twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ApplicationServer or provide service through P*Nuke). I am seeking a new right "home" and believe that CGI::Wiki is the most promising prospect.
Peter Masiar may be able to add something about his observations in the increase of pace of Kwiki.
Regards, Martin
-----Original Message----- From: cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li [mailto:cgi-wiki-dev-admin@earth.li] On Behalf Of Jonathan Swartz Sent: Sunday, 14 September 2003 7:34 AM To: cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li Subject: Re: [cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?
The philosophies of the project are starkly different in at least one way. Kwiki is fanatical about remaining easy to install, to the point of using no CPAN modules - they rolled their own template toolkit, for pete's sake. CGI::Wiki obviously depends on external modules wherever it is useful. I wonder if this (beyond any other differences) could be reconciled.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin@Cleaver.org
To: cgi-wiki-dev@earth.li
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:34 PM
Subject: [cgi-wiki-dev] Convergence with Kwiki?
Hi Kake,
More questions. has anyone proposed, and what's the general feeling about, merging the efforts of CGI::Wiki and Kwiki? I question the need for independent efforts and wonder whether a joint community would have better economies of scale.
Cheers,
Martin
--
Martin@Cleaver.org Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman Cell:+1 416 832 7759 Y!:mrjcleaver ICQ:55418201
Re: Template Toolkit, I was under the impression that Kwiki now used this.
http://www.kwiki.org/index.cgi?KwikiTemplateToolkit
The core does not, but you are right, this page does (apparently) provide a patch that lets you use kwiki with template toolkit.
Jon
Martin@Cleaver.org wrote:
More questions. has anyone proposed, and what's the general feeling about, merging the efforts of CGI::Wiki and Kwiki?
On Sun 14 Sep 2003, Jonathan Swartz swartz@pobox.com wrote:
Kwiki is fanatical about remaining easy to install, to the point of using no CPAN modules - they rolled their own template toolkit, for pete's sake. CGI::Wiki obviously depends on external modules wherever it is useful. I wonder if this (beyond any other differences) could be reconciled.
I am not sure that anyone can really compare CGI::Wiki and CGI::Kwiki properly unless they're quite familiar with both. I don't think such a person exists, at the moment.
Martin@Cleaver.org wrote:
I question the need for independent efforts and wonder whether a joint community would have better economies of scale.
A historical note follows. Ingy was aware of CGI::Wiki before he began writing CGI::Kwiki - he emailed me asking if there were plans for a flat-file backend. He decided to go ahead with Kwiki because he needed something in a hurry. He said he didn't plan to spend more than one or two days on it - these things do take on a life of their own sometimes :)
Kake
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Jonathan Swartz -
Kate L Pugh -
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